Lemmings Speedrunning

[Nihilist Comedy Hour]

@namida As a side note, the SMS and the GameGear pretty much share the same hardware. The GameGear is backwards compatible with the SMS, more or less, but games for the GameGear cannot be played on the SMS.

Chances are, there is no difference between SMS/GameGear version of the games. I will double check though if I can, but likely the issue won't make itself too pressing for a while, I imagine.

[Nihilist Comedy Hour]

Me just now finding this:  Check out pages 16-17 and beyond...

https://issuu.com/amigajay/docs/lemmings_-_the_ports Page

[Simon]

Regarding hitting the ESC instead of nuking. THANKS! for that heads up. Now I'm actually sort of torn.

Mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0n2g7CCd3U&t=191s
New WR posted 2 days ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg5sUosg4TQ&t=1947s   42:45!!!!

He knows about exiting with ESC, but explicitly disallows it in the video description.

Maybe discuss it with him after he replies to you? I don't mind to see either ruleset. It's more important that you two agree on ESC when the runs get posted.

cycles can be quite painful for games that don't have internal timing systems

I'm concerned about the loading times, where, to my knowledge, no game caps speed. It's good software design to allow unlimited load speeds.

Since you have a compeditor, maybe compare your vids for screen transitioning speed? If you're nearly equal, then this is no worry in Lemmings.

was any sort of Lemmings speedrunning up to this point... if there have been established rules on the matter in the past, I'd go with that.

I casually raced geoo in Lemmings 1, DMA's Lemmings 2 levels, custom Lemmings 2 levels, and Lix.

The Lemmings 1 race was too long ago to know whether we allowed ESC. I believe we allowed ESC because I don't remember any discussion, and then it's any% by convention. But this was merely one race without routing.

Lemmings 2 casual levels were entirely blind. I didn't highlight the races on twitch, but I clipped getting the idea for a crawling route.

The Lix race was without much routing, too. We knew the levels well because I maintain the game and geoo maintained the community level set. 40 Lovely levels in 16:50; like Neolemmix, it's this fast because of convenience features, but not optimized at all.

Lix and NeoLemmix come close to TAS environments. Custom levels focus purely on the puzzles and not on execution, in contrast to the puzzle-execution mix of Lemmings 1.

-- Simon

[Nihilist Comedy Hour]

So I took your suggestion and sort of compared the loading times between two videos, and it does appear mine is loading slower. That's likely to me not having messed with the cycles at that point, but I can't remember if I had set to 3000 or max at the time. I will play around with that more tomorrow to see what sort of effects DOSBox has on the game. At the end of the day though, RTA will probably be secondary to the combined in-game times of the individual levels. The IGT's will likely take precedence, so if the RTA's appear different, than I can go through and add up level times to see where things actually stand.




In other news, I added all the NES levels. But in the process, I realize it was getting too confusing with the additional NES levels (they use a lot of repeat levels in different ways that other systems don't). What I will likely do tomorrow, especially now that I The Ports reference guide to work with, I will go back in the level leader boards and separate the levels into groupings of sensible platforms. Ultimately, it will just look 1000 times better, and probably be a little more accurate, since the tools can be different for similar levels on different platforms, even when lemming numbers are the same.

It'll be worth the work.

Additionally, I may add a 100% category for the levels as well, so that levels that can be 100% completed can also be timed.

In any case, once I rework the level boards tomorrow, they should be more or less ready to go.

[Nihilist Comedy Hour]

So I've now fixed the level leaderboards. DOS/Amiga, NES, Genesis, CPC/ZX, and SMS are all set up and ready to go in that regard. I'll try to get the windows version up as well for some point, but might try to get Oops All Lemmings up first, since both are on the windows version.

[Scotty]

Nice topic. I always wondered about running Lemmings, it's interesting to me given that you can theoretically be incredibly consistent in your runs as there is no RNG or general NPC kinda problems to worry about. Maybe i'll fire up WinUAE and do some Amiga "episode" (ie Fun/Tricky etc) episodical attempts.

I don't see why ESC level ending should be disallowed if it's an inbuilt vanilla port mechanic though. Classically all that kinda stuff is fair game and runners pick whatever port is fastest, at least from what i've seen, as long as it is an official release. A NeoLemmix run for example would basically be TAS considering that you can easily do frame specific manipulation

[Nihilist Comedy Hour]

Pretty much. As far as I've ascertained, the lack of RNG makes Lemmings runs almost entirely about execution.

For example "We All Fall Down" is pretty straightforward. Basically, the only way of optimizing the level is basically setting release to 99 as fast as possible. That pushes the last necessary Lemming out the fastest. However, to turn all those lemmings into diggers would basically require to click on every one of them while their window for clicking will basically be reduced down to a single pixel. You'd pretty much have to move the cursor slightly to the left by one pixel, and then timed each lemming movings along the cursor, turning them into diggers on their exact pixel.

Obviously, a human probably can't do this under any conditions absent the use of tools.

Regarding ESC feature, the only reason I'm really disallowing it at the moment, is because the only person outside myself to do an RTA attempt did so explicitly banning the feature, and because it isn't entirely clear to me yet which ports have some sort of ESC feature to utilize (like GB, SNES, or what have ya). I can see the pros and cons for allowing for both.

What I will likely to in the future to address this problem is to create two subcategories: One which allows ESC (or any other mechanic that can be determined to quick end the level) and one which does not.

For the purposes of your Amiga run, if you so choose to do one, I would be willing to create said subcategory if it is explicitly your preference.

As far as NeoLemmix is concerned, I've disallowed, mainly seeing how it's no way an official lemmings release. However, I don't see why NeoLemmix couldn't operate with an additional leaderboard at some point in the future, which would allow custom levels to be speedrun and get boards as well.


Another interesting thing about Lemmings, as far as TAS's are concerned, it's actually a pretty neat game TAS wise, because the puzzle pretty much remains the same. It becomes about finding the exact frames and pixels to do actions that result in the fastest possible time.


Definitely looking forward to your run; feel free to contact me regarding any questions. My graphic card has been utter trash the last couple months, so I can't really work on a 30 level run atm w/o risking crashes mid-run, but hope to address it soon.

[Nihilist Comedy Hour]

Oh yeah, as a side note, I got the "Oh No! More Lemmings" board up as well here: https://www.speedrun.com/morelemmings

I have not yet added the levels yet though.

Basically, it appears the PS and GBC ports are essentially Lemmings & Oh No! More Lemmings, but with a few levels missing.

I'll probably still end up splitting these levels among to the two different games, for ease of keeping track of all the levels.

[607]

Regarding ESC feature, the only reason I'm really disallowing it at the moment, is because the only person outside myself to do an RTA attempt did so explicitly banning the feature, and because it isn't entirely clear to me yet which ports have some sort of ESC feature to utilize (like GB, SNES, or what have ya). I can see the pros and cons for allowing for both.

Well, if you don't use it now, you'll have two runs not using it, and it'll only make it have more of an impact if you change it later. I'd suggest switching over right away. If there's no reason to ban it, don't ban it.
Ports don't matter, as they are separated anyway. Just remove the rule, and it can be used in whatever versions it is present.

(I also posted this on the forum itself)

[Nihilist Comedy Hour]

Whoa, 607, didn't know you were over here.

Tonight when I get off work, I'll be looking into it, particularly how to get subcats set up appropriately if possible.

It's really just a matter of categorizing the ESC/No ESC feature.  I have no intentions of banning its use from any and all run types.

[ccexplore]

For example "We All Fall Down" is pretty straightforward. Basically, the only way of optimizing the level is basically setting release to 99 as fast as possible. That pushes the last necessary Lemming out the fastest. However, to turn all those lemmings into diggers would basically require to click on every one of them while their window for clicking will basically be reduced down to a single pixel. You'd pretty much have to move the cursor slightly to the left by one pixel, and then timed each lemming movings along the cursor, turning them into diggers on their exact pixel.

Obviously, a human probably can't do this under any conditions absent the use of tools.

Actually, it is pretty well known here that not every lemming has to dig to survive, because a partially dug-down floor (but not yet completely dug through) can already be low enough for a subsequent walker lemming to fall and land safely without having to dig himself.  In fact, in a few ports there is a trick you can use to have one digger stop the digging of another lemming very closely behind, resulting in the creation of a permanent step-down ledge where the remaining lemmings can simply walk to and then fall safely down.  Even in ports where that trick doesn't work, the survivability of falling from a partially dug-down floor means in the fastest solution, the very last lemming out definitely should not be digging, instead you can basically assign to the farthest lemming ahead of him that will not completely dig through the floor before that last lemming catches up.  Bottom line, people here have worked out that you need far fewer diggers than the actual number of lemmings to complete the level, and in fact in doing so you would want the lemmings as close together as possible as well.

At release rate 99 in many ports, the lemmings are 4 pixels apart, and a lemming walk forwards one pixel per update.  The update rate can vary from port to port but maybe somewhere around 16 fps.  So I don't think the margin of error is quite so small as to preclude clicking on every lemming as not humanly possible (even ignoring that we don't actually have to or want to do that, per above).  Very difficult?  Undoubtedly, but completely beyond human ability?  Not sure.

[Proxima]

So I don't think the margin of error is quite so small as to preclude clicking on every lemming as not humanly possible (even ignoring that we don't actually have to or want to do that, per above).  Very difficult?  Undoubtedly, but completely beyond human ability?  Not sure.

Well, that's exactly* how I solved the Mayhem version of the level when I was a kid of course helped by the fact that, as you mentioned, it doesn't matter if you miss a lemming here and there -- the surrounding diggers will lower its fall enough.

*EDIT: On re-reading, I realise it's not exactly the same: I set the RR to 99 to get all lemmings out, then assigned diggers left to right.

[Nihilist Comedy Hour]

For example "We All Fall Down" is pretty straightforward. Basically, the only way of optimizing the level is basically setting release to 99 as fast as possible. That pushes the last necessary Lemming out the fastest. However, to turn all those lemmings into diggers would basically require to click on every one of them while their window for clicking will basically be reduced down to a single pixel. You'd pretty much have to move the cursor slightly to the left by one pixel, and then timed each lemming movings along the cursor, turning them into diggers on their exact pixel.

Obviously, a human probably can't do this under any conditions absent the use of tools.

Yes, that's a good point I had forgot about. I'm not sure it would actually allow you complete the level faster, but it would probably be easier to say, click on every other lemming than every single one. And it's four whole pixels? It seems so smaller.

I think though, that if you were to use a digger say before, the last 2 lemmings, that would allow the 2 last lemmings to pass the digger, making the third the last lemming the furthest from the exit. I'd have to think about it for a moment, but seems like that would cause level to end a second earlier (assuming no escape).

I didn't know about dig cancel for other ports though. That's pretty cool. Seems like that might make a few levels easier, seeing how you wouldn't have to expend as many builders to cancel out a dig.

[Forestidia86]

About which "We all fall down" are we talking? It should be viable for the Fun variant?
My best time on the Fun variant of a Dos version with 99 release rate as early as possible is 2:12 left.

[Forestidia86]

After retrying it a bit I must admit that I may have been just lucky in my first attempts. Although I still think it is learnable and the way to go in single-level-attack. But for a full run it is quite risky.
The problems are:

-The lemmings seem to cluster which seems to make assignments harder.
-You can actually run out of diggers and still have lemmings left that need to dig.

I'm still not sure about the best strategy but having an aspect of back and forth in the assignments seems to be helpful for success.

Edit: It seems I wasn't lucky, but apparently in the CD-version the lemmings don't splat in this level. Nevertheless I managed to get through with 99 RR in the floppy version/where they splat as well. So it is still the way to go for single level.