[Neolemmix] Quest From Kieran Development Thread

[kieranmillar]

Released! Go here instead: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6184.0

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Welcome to Quest From Kieran, the prequel to Quest From Kieran 2!

This is a 40 56 60 level pack for Neolemmix v12.12.5 or later. It contains levels in the traditional Lemmings style, so only the original 8 skills, no levels taller than the original height, only levels styles from the original game and Oh No, that sort of thing. There are probably a billion backroutes. Difficulty is probably overall mid-to-high with a small number of easy levels at the start and getting very brutal towards the end, but I have no idea how to really gauge this.

The music is songs made by classic British demoscene musician 4mat, specifically tracks from a Jet Set Willy remake. You should be fine with regards to e.g. copyright on Youtube playthroughs. I came up with my own names for the tracks, there were no official names.

The Ranks

Fun
I thought it made no sense why only the original game gets to have a rank that states the levels are fun. I want my levels to be fun too! So I named this rank Fun. Hah! Take that!

Investing in Infrastructure

Also Fun
What, you thought only the first few levels in a level pack are allowed to be fun? Well not this time! These levels are a bit harder, but they're still fun!

Frozen Arches

Hard But Still Fun
Levels don't have to be easy to be fun. Even my hard levels are fun!

Pillars of the Community

Not Fun
Well I guess they can't all be winners.

The High Ground

How to Install

Extract the contents of the zip file into Neolemmix's levels folder. Then inside Neolemmix, press F2 to select the level pack you wish to play. If you want the music, extract the files into Neolemmix's music folder.

[Akseli]

Okay, solved 37/40 of them now, my solutions are attached. Mostly backroutes I guess but still pretty enjoyable pack so far!

Spoiler

Also Fun 4: Slow Motion - I apparently saved my ordinary route replay solution at first without realizing that I killed the climber. The second (climberless) solution fails barely because everyone can't fall to the left from the digger pit.

Hard But Still Fun 3: My First Crush - No good idea on this one yet, I can't merge the left group effectively enough, will lose 10 too many or so.

Not Fun 9: Rock Climbers - I don't know how to save the climber miner guy, since both bashers go to releazing the blockers, otherwise the basher could save the climber guy in the green wall at the bottom.

[kieranmillar]

Attached to the opening post you will find v2 of this pack.

For various reasons that I won't detail here, I had decided I wasn't going to finish this pack and fix all of the issues. However abandoning a pack after all of the levels have already been built and leaving the pack completely busted was lame, so instead I have decided to do all of the quick backroute fixes I had on my ToDo list and release a version 2.

There are still many levels that are extremely broken. I'm not sure what to do, I'm not willing to spend too much time on this pack any more. Perhaps for those levels I could release the official solutions and if anybody has any good ideas on how to fix those levels I will make those changes? Or just release as-is.

In the meantime, have these small changes:

v02 changelog:

Spoiler

Fun 4 Humiliated By Burgundy - Steel at top of drop.
Fun 7 Grasping at Straws - More traps and less terrain.
Fun 9 Just Dropping In - Lowered sand block in middle of level, and lowered wooden plank above exit.

Also Fun 4 Slow Motion - Fixed flipped hatch
Also Fun 6 The Burrowers - Added steel
Also Fun 7 Health and Safety Gone Mad - Removed terrain in top corner that was supposed to be purely decorative.
Also Fun 8 Humble Bundle - Extended wall spike trap downwards.
Also Fun 9 The Firing Squad - Flattened final pillar and slightly repositioned some others

Hard But Still Fun 1 Uphill Struggle - A bit of steel in the centre of the level.
Hard But Still Fun 2 Lemming BBQ - Steel under the fire pit.
Hard But Still Fun 4 Pillars of the Community - Cut out brick on eastern wall + added steel.
Hard But Still Fun 5 Master Exploder - Raised height of pillars.
Hard But Still Fun 7 How's It Hanging? - Steel just behind bottom trap.
Hard But Still Fun 9 Increasing Productivity - Changed floor under trap, added steel before exit.

Not Fun 3 Brickin' 'eck - Steeled up the entire top of the entrance platform.
Not Fun 5 Joint Construction - Lowered ceiling above in highest area above small water pit.
Not Fun 7 Offshore Rig - The lower of the two planks directly above exit split into two.
Not Fun 9 Rock Climbers - Steel below top hatch

List of still broken levels:
Fun 6 A Bridge To Far?
Fun 10 The Ultimate Quest
Also Fun 10 The Ultimate Quest, Take 2
Hard But Still Fun 10 The Ultimate Quest, Take 3
Not Fun 1 Mined Your Head
Not Fun 2 Organic Lemming
Not Fun 4 Down The Tubes
Not Fun 6 Toil
Not Fun 8 The High Ground
Not Fun 10 The Ultimate Quest, Take 4

[Wafflem]

I've streamed this pack on Twitch (along with two ArtLems levels). It'll be up for 14 days:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/242379534

I've played the first two ranks and some of the third rank, and I've found a lot of backroutes, specifically in the following levels:
A Bridge Too Far (Fun 6), Grasping At Straws (Fun 7), The Ultimate Quest (Fun 10)
The Tree of Death (Also Fun 2), Most Valuable Lemming (Also Fun 5), The Burrowers (Also Fun 6)

I've also attached my replays. Overall, I had a LOT of fun streaming this pack, and I look forward to streaming it again at some point. Thanks for the pack, Kieran!

[Akseli]

Finally revisited this level pack, attached working replays for all the levels in the second version of the pack, QFK_v02. So most of the replays are same that I posted last time, but I also solved now the updated levels as well and three levels that I didn't solve the first time.

Comments on the levels that aren't in the "broken level list" (contain spoilers):

Spoiler

Fun 4: Humiliated by Burgundy, 7: Grasping at Straws and 9: Just Dropping In - These were updated from the first rating, and they're really solid easy-ish difficulty levels now.

Also Fun 4: Slow Motion - I didn't solve this last time. A tremendously fantastic level, simple layout but there's somehow quite a lot happening there. In my opinion this should be at least in the next rating, this is way too challenging for this place.
Also Fun 6: The Burrowers - Now a bit more reasonable solution in the updated version, this solution came to my mind at first but I think that the intended solutions works in a way that you dig few times with the hero climber lemming going that cycle from down to up again, so a shaft is created for builders to zig zag up it.
Also Fun 7: Health And Safety Gone Mad - This is an excellent level now!
Also Fun 8: Humble Bundle and 9: The Firing Squad - Really nice. The latter might be a backroute, though.

Hard But Still Fun 1: Uphill Struggle, 2: Lemming BBQ, 4: Pillars of the Community and 9: Increasing Productivity - Really enjoyable and superb levels now!
Hard But Still Fun 3: My First Crush - I didn't solve this the first time, got this now.
Hard But Still Fun 5: Master Exploder - A good level, could be a backroute though?
Hard But Still Fun 7: How's It Hanging? - This one I suspect backrouting almost in the same way as last time.
Hard But Still Fun 8: Tough Mudder - This level wasn't updated, and my solution feels ok even though it saves a skill. But you told me earlier that the only level I solved intendedly in this ranking was Spiral Staircase, so how it is?

Not Fun 3: Brickin' 'eck - Super awesome level, I'm really hyped about this pack!
Not Fun 5: Joint Construction - Few diggers saved, I'm suspecting a backroute here.
Not Fun 7: Offshore Rig - I used now my spare builder from my last solution to most probably backroute this again.
Not Fun 9: Rock Climbers - I didn't solve this last time, now I got it! Updating the top left area with a steel floor helped me to find this solution, and fortunately I saved my attempt replay earlier that helped me to set that difficult miner-builder thing up with that quick 55-75-55 RR adjustment. A hard and great level!

I'm really loving this pack, and it's a bit shame that you don't have motivation to work on it anymore, but even if at least some not-that-broken levels will still get possible easy fixes, I'd appreciate it a lot! And if we don't count the recurring The Ultimate Quest level and most of the last rating because of the backroutes, I'd highly recommend this pack for everyone to play. Really people, there's no excuse not to play this pack, have a go at this level pack gem!

[kieranmillar]

Whaaaaaaat!? 10 months later and there's an update? Version 03 has been released and attached to the opening post. I felt bad that Akseli enjoyed the pack so much but I had abandoned it, so I started working on it again.

Most important changes: This pack has 10 new levels! But 6 old ones have been removed (Fun 6 - A Bridge Too Far?, Not Fun 2 - Organic Lemming and all 4 Ultimate Quest levels that were at the end of each rank). So, each rank currently has 11 levels for a total of 44. I plan to make it go back to a more satisfying round number of levels eventually by adding even more levels, but figured it could do with a release in its current state. I do plan to eventually make a replacement for The Ultimate Quest, but that will take a while as it requires redoing from scratch and there's no point in leaving the broken levels around in the meantime.

The addition and removal of levels have made most of the levels change position, so if you care about your previous replays you might want to note which one was for which level if you only have them saved via rank name and number. All mention of rank name and number below are the new positions.

EDIT: Pack now requires Neolemmix v12.04.00 or later, which is the current latest stable version.

Levels that are still broken but I plan to fix:
Hard But Still Fun 3 - Grasping at Straws
Not Fun 1 - Mined Your Head
Not Fun 5 - Down The Tubes
Not Fun 10 - The High Ground

v03 changelog:

Spoiler

• Fun
  
  • 01 - Investing in Infrastructure - New level!
  • 05 - So Close ... And Yet - New Level!
  • 07 - Holes and Coals - New Level!
  • 09 - On the Skew - Moved ranks, level is unchanged.
• Also Fun
  
  • 01 - The Tree of Death - Extended one-way field higher to prevent Wafflem's backroute that barely got over the arrow field. Akseli's solution is intended.
  • 04 - The Burrowers - More steel to fix Akseli's solution (Akseli, you are correct in what you predicted the intended solution would be)
  • 05 - Snow Plows - New Level!
  • 07 - Impact Zone - New Level!
  • 09 - Jacob's Ladder - New Level!
  • 10 - Lemming BBQ - Moved ranks, level is unchanged.
  • 11 - Rock-A-Bye Lemmy - New Level!
• Hard But Still Fun
  
  • 02 - Recession-Proof - New Level!
  • 03 - Grasping at Straws - Moved ranks, level is unchanged. Note: Level is broken and due to change
  • 05 - Pillars of the Community - The pillars now don't have little bumps at the bottom to prevent slightly easier solution.
  • 06 - Slow Motion - Moved ranks, level is unchanged.
  • 09 - How's it Hanging? - Steel below bottom hanging machine, and increased save requirement, because I realised there was a clean way to save more lemmings
  • 10 - Tough Mudder - Removed a miner and a hole in the terrain to enforce a larger delay for the crowd
  • 11 - Increasing Productivity - Exit moved further away so requires 2 builders. Skills unchanged despite this.
• Not Fun
  
  • 02 - Rising Condensation - New Level!
  • 03 - Rescue Rodents - New Level!
  • 06 - Joint Constrction - Added steel below top wall
  • 07 - The Firing Squad -Moved Ranks. Numerous backroute fixes: Now there are 2 turns to the exit, there is more space behind each pillar, and each tube on the main part of the level ends a bit sooner.
  • 08 - Offshore Rig - Taller steel near exit
  • 09 - Toil - Not sure what happened here but some Neolemmix version has flipped the diagonal thin terrain so the level had these weird floating ramps facing the wrong way. I've fixed these + a whole bunch more changes, including skills and number of lemmings

[kieranmillar]

Another version, mainly adding more levels, plus some tweaks to others, including a rework of all 4 The Ultimate Quest levels, redesigned from scratch to more accurately represent the ideas the original levels were meant to convey, but were too complex and therefore too easily backrouted.

I'm trying to focus on making levels on the easier side because I think this pack overall is very hard and could do with a bit more of a gradual difficulty curve. I still plan to have all levels be interesting puzzles, just try to make them more straightforward.

There are now 13 levels in each rank. I hope to eventually reach 15 levels per rank.

Levels that are still broken but I plan to fix:
Hard But Still Fun 4 - Grasping at Straws
Not Fun 2 - Mined Your Head
Not Fun 6 - Down The Tubes

v04 changelog:

Spoiler

• Fun
  
  • 6 - Brolly Jolly - New Level
  • 11 - Wrong Tool for the Job - New Level
  • 13 - The Ultimate Quest - New Level
• Also Fun
  
  • 1 - Just Dropping In - Moved up from previous rank, no changes.
  • 4 - Most Valuable Lemming - Slight tweaks for ease-of-play and a backroute fix.
  • 6 - Snow Plows - Made water show up in front of terrain, no solution-relevant changes.
  • 10 - The Dire Docks - New Level
  • 13 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 2 - New Level
• Hard But Still Fun
  
  • 1 - Rock-A-Bye Lemmy - Moved up from previous rank, no changes.
  • 11 - The Temple of Doom - New Level
  • 13 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 3 - New Level
• Not Fun
  
  • 1 - Increasing Productivity - Moved up from previous rank, no changes.
  • 10 - Toil - Numerous tweaks to terrain, skills, save requirement and release rate to make level easier to execute, especially at the start, and to pre-emptively remove some potential backroutes.
  • 11 - The High Ground - All sorts of changes to kill backroutes and simplify things a bit
  • 13 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 4 - New Level

[Akseli]

What a surprise!

My v04 solutions are attached, though I didn't yet re-solve Pillars of the Community (yep, whaat?) and The Firing Squad (oh, this might be really evil...). Loads of backroutes probably, but I think I've now found a decent solutions at least for How's it Hanging? and Increasing Productivity, and also for the new level Rescue Rodents. The Ultimate Quest levels feel more reasonable also, now!

Investing in Infrastructre level has a typo in its title.

Edit: Btw, I played these with NeoLemmix V 12.03.00 or so, I don't know if there's important changes.

[kieranmillar]

Cheers for playing again Akseli. Lots of backroutes to fix!

How's It Hanging and Rescue Rodents are intended, I've realised I can shrink the size of Rescue Rodents because it's super wide for no good reason so I will do that. Increasing Productivity, interestingly is not even close to my solution but I love your solution so much I'll leave it in. I think this level is OK to be flexible with its solutions.

As for The Ultimate Quest, glad it's more manageable, you still backrouted them all though. Serves me right for getting cute with spare Exploders I guess. But I suppose this is to be expected if I want to go to the insane ridiculousness of having an identical layout work for 4 levels.

With nobody being able to solve The Firing Squad for all this time, I do wonder if it's worth me trying to make it easier. There are lots of things I can change, but I think doing any of them might make things too obvious? I don't really want to comment too much on this before anybody else has solved it however.

[kieranmillar]

Before Akseli's last post I actually had a new version ready to go and was about to post it, fortunately this means this new version now has a load of backroute fixes in it to. There are also 4 more levels and the outstanding TODO list of broken levels has been cleared out, so getting closer to a fully fixed up pack.

Would be interesting to know with the further round of fixes and simplifications if The Ultimate Quest levels are in the correct order of difficulty. It's hard for me to tell, am tempted to swap  take 3 and take 4. Any terrain tweaks to this level of course have been applied to every version.

A number of levels have been changed to change the music track as some music tracks were quite close to each other with all the level shuffling around. If Neolemmix thinks a level has been updated but it's not listed in the changelog below, then it might have moved ranks or the music changed, or a typo fixed.

v05 changelog:

Spoiler

• Fun
• 5 - So Close... And Yet - Minor terrain tweaks.
• 14 - The Ultimate Quest - Reduced Exploders + landscape tweaks in all versions.
• Also Fun
• 1 - Ancient Ruins - New Level
• 6 - Snow Plows - Start area now is flat ground, and reduced save requirement by 1.
• 8 - Tree Top Trouble - New Level
• 9 - Impact Zone - Enough changes that this is essentially a whole different puzzle now.
• 11 - Iron Awe - New Level
• 12 - The Dire Docks - Raised height of first drop.
• 13 - Jacob's Ladder - Many skill and terrain tweaks, plus a second trapdoor.
• 14 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 2 - Reduced Climbers, Blockers, Exploders and Diggers, swapped a Miner for a Basher, increased save requirement + landscape tweaks in all versions.
• Hard But Still Fun
• 2 - Once You Pop You Can't Stop - New Level
• 3 - Rock-A-Bye-Lemmy - Skill and terrain adjustments to fix major backroute.
• 5 - Recession-Proof - Added some pipe.
• 6 - Grasping at Straws - Essentially a new level, it's changed so much.
• 13 - The Temple of Doom - Added a Builder, made a gap bigger.
• 14 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 3 - Added Builder, removed Exploder + landscape tweaks in all versions.
• Not Fun
• 1 - Tough Mudder - Added a big hole, and moved up a rank.
• 3 - Mined Your Head - Many major changes.
• 4 - Rising Condensation - Gap is slightly bigger.
• 5 - Rescue Rodents - Shrunk the level. This does not materially change the solution.
• 7 - Down The Tubes - Many major changes.
• 10 - Offshore Rig - Added Steel.
• 11 - Toil - Added more flamethrowers.
• 12 - The High Ground - Removed a Builder, and changed the terrain by removing decoration and filling a gap.
• 14 - The Ultimate Quest, Take 4 - Removed a Climber, a Blocker and a Digger, increased save requirement + landscape tweaks in all versions.

[kieranmillar]

A quick hotfix v05a, Not Fun 4 - Rising Condensation accidentally became too precise. I have adjusted a terrain piece by a single pixel.

[Akseli]

Solutions for 20 levels, some for the updated levels and some for new ones. The rest of the levels I need to think a bit more.

[kieranmillar]

Thanks Akseli, that was fast! Although, I guess such speed is not a good sign, as the demos show.

Some of these backroutes are very embarrassing, like Toil, and Tree Top Trouble, but Mined Your Head made me WTF with that builder shenanigans, will have to think hard about what I'm going to do about that.

On the plus side, at least The Ultimate Quest, Take 2 was exactly intended!

[kieranmillar]

I've had some changes sitting on my computer for a while. As I went in to fix namida's backroute as discovered in the LOTY2018 thread, I decided I might as well push live all fixes done so far. v6 attached to the opening post.

v06 changelog:

Spoiler

• All Ultimate Quest Levels have had one-way arrows added to them.
• Also Fun


• 1 - Ancient Ruins - Decrease Exploders to 3, minor terrain tweak near start, reduced save requirement to be a bit less difficult at this stage of the pack.
• 6 - Snow Plows - Added 3 icicle traps near start
• 11 - Iron Awe - Numerous tweaks to fix backroutes, including skill changes.
• 12 - The Dire Docks - Raised the height of the bricks AGAIN
• Hard But Still Fun


• 2 - Once You Pop You Cant Stop - World's laziest backroute fix
• 3 - Rock-A-Bye Lemmy - Bottom crowd is contained a bit lower and backroute miner no longer possible
• 6 - Grasping at Straws - More steel at right exit
• 13 - The Temple of Doom - Removed a basher and a shredder trap, made miner easier to execute with terrain tweak.
• Not Fun


• 6 - Brickin' 'Eck - Fixed namida's backroute
• 7 - Down the Tubes - Slightly less tube on right-hand side.
• 11 - Toil - Added even more flamethrowers on left side of level, plus some other minor tweaks.

Levels in a currently broken state awaiting fixing:

• Also Fun


• 8 - Tree Top Trouble
• 9 - Impact Zone
• Not Fun


• 1 - Tough Mudder - Not sure if I want to fix this or leave as is, not that broken really
• 3 - Mined Your Head - I might replace this entirely
• 12 - The High Ground

[Akseli]

Heyaa, my solutions for updated levels in v06 except for the Ultimate Quest levels for now. My solution for Brickin' 'eck was the same, but the namida-backroute fix broke my replay so I recorded a new one.