[Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks

[IchoTolot]

The ceiling acts like a steel wall in all other cases. Builders hit their head, Lemmings turn if they run against it. So it would only be logical if the shimmier grabs onto it. Not doing so would be a weird special rule.

Climber->Shimmier:
I am actually curios how this is going to be implemented. In 2 the climber hangs a while facing the opposite direction, allowing for a shimmier assign. Here, as a climber immidiately falls opon reaching the ceiling, he would need to jump while still hanging at the wall + do a turn-around. This sounds very weird to me to be honest and I am not really sure if this is going to play out good.

Shimmier->Climber:
I agree that this shouldn't be possible, even with the situation explained where this would be viable. I think this would make the skill even too mighty.

[Kingshadow3]

Another thing I'd like to ask is which of these will happen if a shimmier is assigned a walker:

1. The lemming stops being a shimmier and falls down from where he currently is.
2. The shimmier turns around.
3. You are unable to assign that lemming as a walker.

[IchoTolot]

The ceiling acts like a steel wall in all other cases. Builders hit their head, Lemmings turn if they run against it. So it would only be logical if the shimmier grabs onto it. Not doing so would be a weird special rule.

Well, I think it is time we reconsidered the deadly ceiling. Nepster decided to cull radiation and slowfreeze in spite of damage to existing content, because it resulted in a simpler and more consistent game.

This was discussed on multiplay occasions in the past with the final result ending here: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2537.0
Even with a high majority in favor of this.

There is some point where things should be considered final and the point for that was long ago. Otherwise creating content will become a nightmare as nothing can be be called certain and reliable anymore.

Radiation and slowfreeze was never discussed before on the other hand if somebody wants to make a connection.

Here as I said we had multiple occasions + I already analysed that a ceiling change would be fatal for nearly all content (and 1,5 years have passed by now so it's even waaay worse now), as even levels that don't rely on it actively have a high chance to rely on it passivly: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2537.msg56082#msg56082

I rather ditch the shimmier as a whole before starting the discussion on this AGAIN. Digging up old topic is highly counterproductive. Please let this rest in peace!

Simply let the shimmier garp onto the ceiling.

Another thing I'd like to ask is which of these will happen if a shimmier is assigned a walker:

1. The lemming stops being a shimmier and falls down from where he currently is.
2. The shimmier turns around.
3. You are unable to assign that lemming as a walker.

As walkers can't be assigned to climbers/floaters/gliders they shouldn't be assignable to shimmiers I think.

[Simon]

Assign walker to shimmier: What will happen when you assign walker to swimmer? Probably copy this behavior.

Top of map: Probably too late to redesign. Maybe continue to treat the top like steel. Can make the border more visible wherever terrain touches it. (But I admit: A part of me wants to see another raging, fiery debate about the top of map, for no good. )

-- Simon

[kieranmillar]

Something fun to consider, what if anti-gravity is ever implemented? Would lemmings walk on the level top? Would they splat on the level top? Would a lemming climbing to the bottom of the level die or stop climbing and fall back up? If they tried to mine on the level border, would it make a CLANG noise like hitting steel? Does it currently do that if you mine right near the top of the level?

This is relevant to think about, we are adding a skill that interacts with what is above the lemming in a different way to the standard skill set, so I think a reassessment is fair. What will happen if a jumper is implemented? Will they bonk their head on the level ceiling or be allowed to move partially off the top of the screen? If you implemented a throwing skill, would the rocks stick to the sky?

This discussion will likely come back again at some point.

Personally I think the shimmier not shimmying along an open top level border makes the most sense and feels right, even if ultimately it ends up being an exception case to all other ceiling-based interactions.

[Nepster]

I split the topic and moved all the "solid ceiling" discussion to another thread: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3435.0

I will reply to the various points in a moment.

[nin10doadict]

Whether or not the ceiling should be solid isn't the focus of this topic, it's whether or not we should let the Shimmier move across it (if it stays solid). I honestly don't think it would look that awful if the lemming is grabbing the border, as long as the area outside the game window is a different color from the background. Plus, if the ceiling already acts like steel, then this will be consistent with every other ceiling interaction. Then again, not many levels actually ask you to do anything with the ceiling. The fact that it's solid tends to be more important than the fact that it is steel.

[Nepster]

Something like this...

If the shimmier is also a climber, it turns around and climbs up a wall if the wall is climbable.

Thanks for the picture, but I see a few issues with this:
- It makes the shimmier much more powerful, as already mentoned above.
- With enough shimmiers, one would be able to climb any wall, regardless of the overhang.
- When transitioning from shimmier to climber, the lemming will have to turn around. Usually lemmings do this only if they meet terrain, not when terrain is missing. Apart from that, the turning is problematic wrt. the animation.
So I prefer not to implement this behaviour.

Climber->Shimmier:
I am actually curios how this is going to be implemented. In 2 the climber hangs a while facing the opposite direction, allowing for a shimmier assign. Here, as a climber immidiately falls opon reaching the ceiling, he would need to jump while still hanging at the wall + do a turn-around. This sounds very weird to me to be honest and I am not really sure if this is going to play out good.

Climbers will never jump, but every lemming remembers a skill assignment for a few frames, if it cannot be acted upon at the moment (e.g. assigning bashers while falling, ...). So a climber would turn into a shimmier, if (and only if) it remembers a shimmier assignment when the climber hits the ceiling.

A shimmier would only jump upon assignment near a ceiling, if not near a ceiling then it'll just be given the skill like normal.

No, the shimmier will always try to jump. This has one simple reason: As one cannot be sure that the ceiling is still there when the lemming reaches it, I will have to implement falling down after a missed jump anyway.
So there is no reason not to jump in the first place.

Another thing I'd like to ask is which of these will happen if a shimmier is assigned a walker:

1. The lemming stops being a shimmier and falls down from where he currently is.
2. The shimmier turns around.
3. You are unable to assign that lemming as a walker.

Very good question! And it's not clear at all what should happen:
- If one views the shimmier as a moving skill like the swimmer or glider, then one shouldn't be able to assign a walker to it.
- If one views the shimmier as just another non-permanent skill, then one should be able to assign a walker to it and the lemming should drop down. Currently one cannot assign walkers only for permanent skills.
- If one views the shimmier just as walking on the ceiling, then it should turn around. But I feel that this wouldn't be terribly useful.
Personally I prefer letting the shimmier drop down, if one assigns a walker to it, but that's not a strong preference.

Something fun to consider, what if anti-gravity is ever implemented?

This point is moot, because I will not implement anti-gravity due to the terrible amount of work needed for it.

Whether or not the ceiling should be solid isn't the focus of this topic, it's whether or not we should let the Shimmier move across it (if it stays solid). I honestly don't think it would look that awful if the lemming is grabbing the border, as long as the area outside the game window is a different color from the background. Plus, if the ceiling already acts like steel, then this will be consistent with every other ceiling interaction. Then again, not many levels actually ask you to do anything with the ceiling. The fact that it's solid tends to be more important than the fact that it is steel.

Good point. While I myself would prefer to have a non-solid ceiling, I think the consistency point is very convincing:
- If the ceiling is solid, let the shimmier shimmy along it, but heavily discourage this in level design and encourage actually adding some solid pieces there.
- If the ceiling is non-solid, then obviously let it act as air.

[Colorful Arty]

Some really good points made by all. Honestly, while I think it is important to be consistent, I think it is also important to make sure this new skill is useful, and contributes to some good puzzles. As such, I think implementing skill combinations with the shimmier (such as Kingshadow's proposal for the climber + shimmier) would make it a much better skill with more potential, and run less risk of it becoming a "meh" skill like the disarmer.

[IchoTolot]

Kieran:
"I think being able to shimmy along the top level border would look and feel absurd to me in the same way climbing up a solid side border would be absurd, because there is no terrain there. If you want to be able to shimmy on the top of the level, just put some terrain there."

Arty:
"This right here. While it is important to be consistent, it's just as important to be intuitive and to make sense. It really makes no sense for Lemmings to be able to shimmy across the top border of the level, and since the top border currently does not kill lemmings, it should not kill the shimmier if he jumps into it. Rather, since the top border acts like a steel wall, the shimmier should hit his head on the border and fall right back down to the ground."

This makes sense to me. The head hitting option makes more sense.

[Simon]

I find this thread really fascinating, but this takes the cake:

since the top border acts like a steel wall, the shimmier should hit his head

"Since"? What behavior do you expect from steel blocks in the level? If the top really behaved like all the other steel, then certainly we wouldn't bonk, we would shimmy?

-- Simon

[Colorful Arty]

I think it makes no sense to shimmy across the top border, since it really is just thin air in the Lemmings world; essentially that would mean them shimmying across thin air. The only reason the border right now "acts" like steel is to stop Lemmings from leaving the level boundary. That is why Lemmings who build into the ceiling bonk and stop, just as shimmiers should bonk and drop. I agree that shimmiers should shimmy across steel, but not the top of the level, because the level top is not actually steel, it just has some steel properties.

[Ryemanni]

I have to agree with Arty. Ignore the technical side and think how weird it would look if Lemmings shimmied in nothingness.

[Dullstar]

On the subject of the process of jumping up to the ceiling: I'd say if no ceiling is present, either
A) the lemming jumps up and falls back down
or
B) nothing happens, and the skill is not consumed.

I don't really have a preference either way on that, but I am strongly against the skill being consumed while doing nothing. At least if you assign a basher where it can't do anything it slows it down a little, which is something.

[ccexplore]

(edit: moved the ceiling comments to the other thread.  I got confused and thought that thread was just a standalone Simon rant/post)
(edit2: copying it back here.  That thread was going at a somewhat different direction.  My point still applies even if we keep all existing non-shimmier ceiling behaviors.)

Climbers don't climb the level's left/right borders in NeoLemmix, do they?  They certainly don't in original Lemmings, despite other interactions present for those borders (eg. turning around walkers).

At least with climbers, even if they could climb the borders it would be quite difficult to exploit that behavior usefully.  Shimmying across the top border however would seem way more exploitable than any other ceiling interactions to date.  I don't think it is acceptable behavior to open up such an exploitable border behavior.  Heck, some people already feel even the existing border interactions are already too helpful.

I don't really have a preference either way on that, but I am strongly against the skill being consumed while doing nothing.

That seems reasonable.  I'm hard-pressed to think of any case in original Lemmings where a skill can be consumed with absolutely no effect to the lemming.  For cases involving steel, the game actually blocks the assignment attempt and plays a "clink" sound feedback to the user, rather than decreasing the skill count. Similarly, in Lemmings 2, shimmiers actually require a bit of headspace for the initial jump (more than the minimum shimmiable tunnel height), and assignment attempts violating that requirement simply do not take effect, leaving the skill count unchanged.