Cull Disarmers, Triggered Decorations and Radiation/Slowfreeze?

[Strato Incendus]

I thought actions might speak louder than words. Attached are two levels in defense of slowfreeze - one of them is a fixed version of a level from Paralems. The original was solveable by only using the radiation - this one requires both radiation and slowfreeze.

The second level approaches slowfreeze differently - sometimes, a lemming dying through slowfreeze can be worse than if it were to die a different way. Because the stoner that results from this can become a hindrance. Try this level without bombing the second slowfreeze lemming and you'll see what I mean.

[nin10doadict]

While my solution to the fire and ice level was very different from yours, the point was still made about exploding the second lemming to walk through the slowfreeze. Certainly a very good use of it, and the zombie level was a pretty good way to use it as well.
Still, I think the decision to remove slowfreeze might still go through. It's not my decision to make regardless, and either way the older editor that supports it should still be available in case you come up with any other good ideas for it.

[ccexplore]

All of the four features add to the complexity of the game

I can understand the desire to simplify, but we don't generally get a lot of feedback on what parts of the game new players especially find most confusing, so it's really tough to say how much of a difference removing one or two little features (often the ones that had been least used as there's less controversy) really makes in the overall scheme of things, since you're still left with a lot more features than Lemmings or even Lix.

In the end it feels more like you can get away with removing certain things mostly because most people don't care enough.   Which admittedly may be a good enough reason.

- Using timed bombers, they clash with the NeoLemmix philosophy to use instant bombers. Actually the timed bombers are pretty hard to place precisely, which adds executional difficulties which we want to avoid.

The big difference is that when bombers were not instant, it almost never actually affects the solution, just the execution of it.  With some exceptions you can usually bomb the exact same location whether the bomber were instant or on a delay.  You just adjust when you assign the skill.

Based on what I read about radiation and slowfreeze, the difference is that they are forced on your lemming when they reached the object, so you are more limited in your control over where the final effect actually takes place compared to assigning skills.  While they can end up adding unnecessary precision, I think good uses of those features would try to minimize the precision, and focus on eg. directing the victim lemming to one of several choices of discrete target locations (to apply the eventual effect) be the puzzle.  It might involve assigning additional skills to the victim lemming and/or having other lemmings pave a path beforehand to help direct the victim lemming.  It could possibly be as simple as whether you send a lemming going left or going right to the object.

So in theory, there is some puzzle potential out of radiation and slowfreeze, and at least some people have come up with what sounds like good uses.  I suspect in practice it can be difficult to make good uses of them, and maybe others who've actually played levels featuring them could say how much of a problem precision tends to be with those objects.  If evidence points that way (and usage is already relatively low) then it is reasonable to consider removing the features and perhaps explore other features instead that are easier to make good use of and have less problems with precision/timing for example.

They have an extremely diverse appearance, so players may not readily recognize them as radiation objects. Or they might confuse them with slowfreeze objects...

Reasonable concerns, although there are other solutions to this specific problem that does not involve removing the features altogether.

================

Ultimately I think your decision will end up mostly guided by (as are often the case, for better or worse) finding not too many people caring too much about their removal.  I suppose it is an okay compromise then to leave the old version of game and editor still available for the few who still want to take advantage of the removed features, and see if they are somehow able to actually change people's mind to care and like the features more despite the hurdles.  You could also potentially do a "soft" removal where you start with removing the ability to use it in the level editor and block loading of levels that try to use it, but still keep the code for the game mechanics around for one more stable release or so, and see if people have indeed moved on since then, and then later either actually remove the dead code for good when clearly no one still care anymore, or potentially restore it if surprisingly people have turned around in their thinking.

[Nepster]

Again a very good post, ccexplore .

I can understand the desire to simplify, but we don't generally get a lot of feedback on what parts of the game new players especially find most confusing, so it's really tough to say how much of a difference removing one or two little features (often the ones that had been least used as there's less controversy) really makes in the overall scheme of things, since you're still left with a lot more features than Lemmings or even Lix.

I totally agree, and basically rely on a test-set of size one: myself. Which is admittedly pretty bad, as I learned about many of the features before we got all the help that is currently present in NeoLemmix. And of course my opinions don't need to be the average ones.
That's why I still have the urge to cull (movable) background objects, even though a lot of people like them and they are lot less of a problem for me now.

They have an extremely diverse appearance, so players may not readily recognize them as radiation objects. Or they might confuse them with slowfreeze objects...

Reasonable concerns, although there are other solutions to this specific problem that does not involve removing the features altogether.

Yes, but spriting is a lot harder for me than removing code.
Anway here another argument against keeping slowfreeze objects: After a lemming got through one of these objects and has the timer, one cannot distinguish lemmings that are going to explode from lemmings that going to be stoned. In most levels, this is not really a problem, as there is only one type of objects around, but in levels like Strato's "Only over their dead bodies" it does rise the question: If a lemmings moves first through a radiation object and then through a slowfreeze object, what will he do at the end? When I played the level, I didn't know the answer myself and had to test...

I thought actions might speak louder than words. Attached are two levels in defense of slowfreeze

Still, I think the decision to remove slowfreeze might still go through.

Sorry, but three good levels in over two years are still not nearly enough, even ignoring the fact that your "A level of Ice and Fire" allows for a backroute that ignores the slowfreeze object completely.
Given all the drawbacks of slowfreeze objects, especially if we decide to keep the radiation objects, I stick to my decision to remove slowfreeze objects from the new-formats version.

You could also potentially do a "soft" removal where you start with removing the ability to use it in the level editor and block loading of levels that try to use it, but still keep the code for the game mechanics around for one more stable release or so, and see if people have indeed moved on since then, and then later either actually remove the dead code for good when clearly no one still care anymore, or potentially restore it if surprisingly people have turned around in their thinking.

This is viable option for some lesser used settings that have far smaller impact on the existing levels. And I already do exactly that already in my new-formats editor, which omits supporting several settings that the NeoLemmix player or even the old editor has.
But for something as important and visible as the existance of whole types of objects, I don't think this silent removal is a good strategy.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks, backroute removed!

You have a point that people haven't found much use for slowfreeze in several years. However, now that you're considering adding new features, they might! If you really get e.g. the jumper to work, imagine what could be done with those and slowfreeze... or with the shimmier...

I think we should at least try these new combinations before forever robbing ourselves of the possibility to test these interactions.

[Nepster]

1) It's not certain when (or even if) jumpers or shimmiers will come. So you basically propose to wait for an indefinite amount of time.
2) We already have thousands of ways to separate a lemming from the crowd, even if a slowfreeze object is placed in the middle. The only really new functions are getting stoners mid-air or at the ceiling. But these can be achieved via regular stoners as well. So I don't see why the jumper-slowfreeze or jumper-shimmier combination is particularly appealing.
3) Fencers were added quite some time after slowfreeze objects. And I didn't notice a particularly huge number of levels using the slowfreeze-fencer combination (is there even one?). So why do you expect things to be different with jumpers or shimmiers?
4) During the conversion to the new-formats, removing slowfreeze objects is relatively easy. If we decide to remove them afterwards, this will become much more difficult. So either now or never.
5) You will also never be able to try the combination of timed bombers and shimmiers. Or the Frenzy gimmick and jumpers. Sometimes we have to live with such things...

[Strato Incendus]

You will also never be able to try the combination of timed bombers and shimmiers. Or the Frenzy gimmick and jumpers. Sometimes we have to live with such things...

Not if there isn't an "active" reason to remove them. If things clash in the code so one has to be picked over the other, fine. But there can only be harm from removing something no-one uses (yet). It doesn't do damage if it's staying, if it's barely used anyway, but the option wouldn't be gone. Like you said: Now or never. This means if slowfreeze is removed now, I know it will never come back ever, because so far nothing that has been removed once has returned again. So I hope you can understand why I'm so insisting.

The difference between "fencer + slowfreeze" and "jumper + slowfreeze" is obviously that a jumper can get into mid-air, something a stoner is often used for. The fencer only needs to be combined with a stoner in the corner-case that two fencers cross each others paths, as we have discussed; apart from that, it wouldn't make sense to destroy terrain and then create new one.

Here's another use of slowfreeze with cloners, teleporters, and floaters. Still not creative enough?

[ccexplore]

It sounds like it's maybe a case where the new-format conversion needs work per different types of objects, so if one can eliminate some types in the new format then there is less work to do.  That seems like the main (if not only) sense in which the removal is "more work" if done afterwards.

Sadly, I don't think the odds are much in your favor when it sounds like it's mostly down to just you being the advocate.  Maybe you can do a pack of slowfreeze levels now to commemorate the feature's passing, when the current version of game is still in active use and not yet superceded widely by the new version.

[Strato Incendus]

Sadly, I don't think the odds are much in your favor when it sounds like it's mostly down to just you being the advocate.  Maybe you can do a pack of slowfreeze levels now to commemorate the feature's passing, when the current version of game is still in active use and not yet superceded widely by the new version.

The pack I'm currently working on, "Pit Lems", does in fact have a lot more radiation and slowfreeze use, but certainly not just to give them some "quota screen time". This is what I mean by "you're discouraging new level creators". And that can't be in anyone's interest, because it just means less material for everyone to play, especially for those who experts here on the forum who have already mastered every available pack, and tend to solve new ones in a couple of hours.

In order for anyone to play a slowfreeze-featuring pack at all, I'd have to rush the creation of it, from which the quality of the levels would obviously suffer, just to have everyone move on a couple of weeks later, rendering the pack completely worthless only shortly after its conception.

And that line of thinking continues for other features. What if one day, the majority of the forum decides to cut zombies again? That will destroy PARALEMS entirely. Are level packs really viewed as such throwaway stuff, considering all the time and effort that goes into coming up with them, testing them, refining and reordering them?

The original Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings obviously will always be playable on all engines, because those are classics. With regard to custom made packs however, there are already several that are either completely incompatible with new versions (like Copycat Lems), or have been severely trimmed down, like the NeoLemmix introduction pack that now completely misses the Gimmick rank. Even though I've downloaded the old version (1.43) where it should still be playable, the pack itself has been edited so I can't even take a look at those levels anymore aside from watching Flopsy play them on YouTube .

The thing I don't get is: The more features we remove from NeoLemmix, the closer it becomes to good old Lemmix again. Nepster's pack featuring only the classic 8 skills could be played on Lemmix perfectly, minus the instant bombers and the skill blueprints. But the rewinding features and all the other stuff that makes the execution so convenient these days are still there.

So I sometimes ask myself why the philosophies aren't "swapped": NeoLemmix has all the whacky features, so why isn't that engine the "playground" for whacky level ideas in the first place, and Lemmix the more restricted, conservative, strictly puzzly one?

[Nepster]

Thanks to everyone for their replies and opinions. Here are my final decisions. I am aware that whatever I decide, there will be someone unhappy about it, and most likely noone will agree with all of my decisions (and this includes myself).

1) Disarmers: Stay without any changes.
2) Triggered Animations: Removed from the new-formats version. During the conversion to the new-formats version, such objects will automatically be deleted from the level.
3) Radiation objects: Stay without any changes. With the slowfreeze objects gone, many counter-arguments no longer hold. Their appearance is still too diverse for my taste and new players will have to wait ten seconds until they see what this object does, which I deem problematic. But quite a few people deemed them useful and there have been quite a few nice levels, so they may stay.
4) Slowfreeze objects: Removed from the new-formats version. During the conversion to the new-formats version, such objects will automatically be deleted from the level. They are confusing and require usually far more precision than radiation objects, so that the few nice levels using them don't balance these downsides.
5) Anti-Splat pads: Removed from the new-formats version. During the conversion to the new-formats version, such objects will be automatically be replaced by appropriately sized updrafts, so that only minimal differences in game-physics occur. The current anti-splat pad sprites will no longer exist, because gliders floating along them look extremely weird.
6) Object settings "Fake" and "Invisible": Removed from the new-formats version. During the conversion to the new-formats version, fake objects will automatically be removed from levels, while invisible objects will automatically be turned visible.
7) Steel areas: Removed from the new-formats version. During the conversion to the new-formats version, they will simply be ignored.
8) Level setting "Manual Steel": Removed from the new-formats version, because it requires steel areas. Instead Autosteel will be applied.
9) One-way areas: Removed from the new-formats version, because they have been outdated for a long time already. They are automatically replaced by the usual one-way objects.

Comments to graphic style designers:
1) Please remove all triggered animation objects from both the style folder and the translation table. If you like to re-use some of them as moving background objects, add them as completely new objects.
2) Please remove all slowfreeze objects from both the style folder and the translation table. You may consider re-using the sprites as radiation objects. But if you do so, please add them as completely new objects.
3) If your style uses an anti-splat pad, please don't change anything at the sprite or the translation table entry for the anti-splat pad. Instead inform me about this, and I will do all necessary changes. This seems to be a lot faster than writing 20 lines of explanations what to do.

[Proxima]

This is what I mean by "you're discouraging new level creators". In order for anyone to play such a pack at all, I'd have to rush the creation of it, from which the quality of the levels would obviously suffer, just to have everyone move on a couple of weeks later, rendering the pack completely worthless only shortly after its conception.

Not at all. Regardless of what's decided here [EDIT: Nepster posted with final decisions while I was writing this], the current version will remain available; you just have to put a compatibility warning on your pack. Yes, that will reduce the number of people who play it, but it won't be worthless.

What if one day, the majority of the forum decides to cut zombies again? That will destroy PARALEMS entirely. Are level packs really viewed as such throwaway stuff, considering all the time and effort that goes into coming up with them, testing them, refining and reordering them?

The only time culling zombies was ever considered was when they were a gimmick, and namida started a forum topic that (in essence) said "Gimmicks have gotten out of hand, can we cull them?" The debate concluded that zombies were worth preserving (even then, when there were far fewer zombie levels than exist now) and so they were promoted to a main feature. Culling zombies is simply not on the table after that.

If you look through that debate, and what's been said in this one, it should be clear that we do consider damage to existing content as one of the most important considerations. That doesn't mean every level will be supported for ever; sometimes we agree that a change will benefit the game enough to be worth doing in spite of losing some levels. (For example: Simon culled the interrupted basher step from Lix, changing it so bashers remove all terrain in a single frame, since the precision timing of the interrupted basher is a lot worse in multiplayer, where you don't have the ability to pause or rewind. We lost some levels completely and had to rework others.)

The original Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings obviously will always be playable on all engines, because those are classics.

Recent versions of Lix don't support the original graphics sets, so no. Even if you rebuild the original levels so Lix can read them, some levels aren't "playable" in the same way as intended because of other changes (e.g. the lack of time limits spoils Just a Minute). As for NeoLemmix, the Lemmings Redux pack is intended to be the main way to play the original levels from now on; if you really want to play the original levels "authentically" then you should just play the original games.

With regard to custom made packs however, there are already several that are either completely incompatible with new versions (like Copycat Lems)

I believe that's not completely incompatible, it's just that "Cheapo Mode" (80px fall height and other mechanics differences) was removed. Obviously, levels that depend on those differences won't work any more. It would be good to update the pack so it works in new versions, but that requires effort, and the pack doesn't have a dedicated maintainer. I'm pretty sure, though, that someone will get round to doing it at some point. It's certainly not that we've decided the pack shouldn't be supported.

or have been severely trimmed down, like the NeoLemmix introduction pack that now completely misses the Gimmick rank. Even though I've downloaded the old version (1.43) where it should still be playable, the pack itself has been edited so I can't even take a look at those levels any more aside from watching Flopsy play them on YouTube

The intro pack is exceptional because it's meant to introduce new players to the features of NeoLemmix. The levels are not meant as artistic works.

The thing I don't get is: The more features we remove from NeoLemmix, the closer it becomes to good old Lemmix again. [...] So I sometimes ask myself why the philosophies aren't "swapped": NeoLemmix has all the whacky features, so why isn't that engine the "playground" for whacky level ideas in the first place, and Lemmix the more restricted, conservative, strictly puzzly one?

Lemmix's aim is strictly to be an accurate clone of the original game. We mainly use it for the challenge topics, where the aim is to do the best possible towards certain goals (maximum saved, fewest skills, etc) within the constraints of what was possible on the original games. As far as designing new levels goes, Lemmix is dead. No-one wants to go back to the days of glitches.

NeoLemmix has plenty of room for designing wacky levels (too much, in my view; I wish we were culling radiation and a few other object types, but I respect the decision that there's enough content using them to justify keeping the feature). That doesn't mean "anything goes". Most of us have been playing Lemmings-like games and new levels long enough to know what we enjoy and what irritates us; and the general consensus is that levels that don't play fair are more annoying than fun. That doesn't mean you can't make such levels. It just means that if you share content with this community, you have to expect that the feedback you get will be in line with this community's tastes.

[Ryemanni]

9) One-way areas: Removed from the new-formats version, because they have been outdated for a long time already. They are automatically replaced by the usual one-way objects.

Um, what's the difference between an "One-way area" and an "One-way object"? Do you mean that the blocker-like one way fields are removed and are replaced with one way arrows?

[Nepster]

The pack I'm currently working on, "Pit Lems", does in fact have a lot more radiation and slowfreeze use, but certainly not just to give them some "quota screen time". This is what I mean by "you're discouraging new level creators".

Sorry, but if we wait until noone is creating a pack using some feature, before we remove it, no removal will happen at all. Especially as a lot of packs take more than two years.
I feel sorry, that this now hits you, who has only recently joined this community. But delaying the new-formats version just for your sake is not something healthy, given that we are nearing the stage where a stable version could be released.

What if one day, the majority of the forum decides to cut zombies again?

You are comparing apples with eggs here:
- Zombies are far more often used, so the hurdle to remove them is far higher.
- They are considered useful (and are used) by far more people.
- They add something far more unique to NeoLemmix than Slowfreeze or Radiation objects do.
- They don't cause any confusion.
So even though I don't like them myself, I recognize their worth and would now defend them against culling suggestions.
Finally as already mentioned several times already: Everything that stays now for the first new-formats version, will stay for a long, long time.

The thing I don't get is: The more features we remove from NeoLemmix, the closer it becomes to good old Lemmix again.

Up to now, we almost only added features and almost never removed any. And I guess, it will stay like this, if I look at the long list of proposed new features. So even if we remove a few features now, we will never come close to Lemmix again.
Btw. did you notice how many introduction levels nin10doadict needed for Casualemmings? Most of the the first rank and quite a few of the second rank introduce new skills or objects. Are these really not enough features to play around with?

Nepster's pack featuring only the classic 8 skills could be played on Lemmix perfectly, minus the instant bombers and the skill blueprints.

My pack was made deliberately with these restrictions in mind, mainly as a challenge for myself to see whether I could come up with new level ideas within these restrictions. I am currently working on another pack "Return of the Tribes", where I will use a lot more of the new skills and objects. So it simply isn't fair to use NepsterLems as the standard pack that everything should be compared to, especially with regards to usage of new skills and objects.

So I sometimes ask myself why the philosophies aren't "swapped": NeoLemmix has all the whacky features, so why isn't that engine the "playground" for whacky level ideas in the first place, and Lemmix the more restricted, conservative, strictly puzzly one?

If you have a closer look at some of the recent levels, then you will notice that there are a lot of them really whacky ones, that would be horrible to play on Lemmix. All the framestepping and blueprint additions make them suddenly playable! So I would say: NeoLemmix is indeed the playground for all the whacky level ideas.
It just doesn't try to emulate Clones or Lemmini (with all its mods) that strive to add any feature that anyone can think of, regardless of the complexity this adds. Instead it wants to keep the rules relatively simple (as far as this is still possible), so that new players aren't overwhelmed by all the object types (something I fear is happening already now). And for this we rarely have to remove a few features that are no longer worth keeping.

EDIT: Proxima was faster than me. So sorry for any overlapping arguments.

[Nepster]

9) One-way areas: Removed from the new-formats version, because they have been outdated for a long time already. They are automatically replaced by the usual one-way objects.

Um, what's the difference between an "One-way area" and an "One-way object"? Do you mean that the blocker-like one way fields are removed and are replaced with one way arrows?

In the old Lemmix editor, one-way-walls had to be added by placing one-way areas on top of the terrain, very similar to what we now do with the one-way arrow objects. However the internal handling is somewhat different, because the current one-way objects act more like windows and hatches, while the one-way areas act more like old steel areas.
I only removed the support for this old style of adding one-way walls via clicking on "Edit -> Insert Steel" and then manually modifying the area type from steel to one-way-wall. Up to now this was still possible, although probably noone still did it this way.
Summary: All levels where one added one-way-walls via "Insert Object" are totally uneffected. Only some very old levels probably created with the original Lemmix editor are affected and get (automatically) modified. Physics-wise nothings should change for them, too.

[nin10doadict]

Looks like slowfreeze gets the ax then. So it goes.
As for the 'Airborne Aid' level, the replay that was posted seems to be broken so I can't see how it was supposed to work. That said, the level itself was broken too, unfortunately. I was having trouble figuring out how to get everything to time out properly and then realized that you don't need the teleporters or slowfreeze at all... That's a bit of a problem there. The fact that the slowfreeze was annoying enough that I started looking for ways to get around it entirely doesn't bode well for the defense of its continued existence. As mentioned though, it will still exist in the old versions, so it isn't like it's dead forever.
I appreciate the effort to try to defend this feature, but I can't really jump in to defend it myself. I've made a total of one good level featuring it. That doesn't give me enough ammunition to work with. At the very least I don't even have to consider what I could do with it anymore.