Cull Disarmers, Triggered Decorations and Radiation/Slowfreeze?

[Nepster]

Lemmings-like games have the amazing feature that with a relatively small set of features, one can create a plethora of presents levels. But some ideas sound like very cool and useful additions at one time, but after they are added it turns out that they are far less useful than expected. Unfortunately we have collected a few of those over the last years:

1) Disarmers
I have actually quite a hard time naming even one puzzle level, where a disarmer could not have been easily replaced by other skills or terrain changes. There have been several levels in the recent packs Paralems (by Strato Incendus) and Casualemmings (by nin10doadict) that give you disarmers, but in almost all cases I didn't use the disarmer at all.

2) Triggered animation objects for decorations
Although they have been present for quite a while now, almost no graphic style contains them. Most prefer movable background objects instead. Moreover triggered decorations contradict player expectations: If a lemming causes some part of the level to animate, then this is doing something to the lemming.

3) Radiation objects
These are probably the most useful among the features discussed here and there are levels out there which use them in a very creative way, e.g. nin10doadict's "Thou dost ask too much!" (Hyper 4 of Casualemmings) or namida's "A Universal Production" (Twisted 14 of LemPlus IV). Still such levels are comperatively rare, while radiation objects come with other problems:
- Using timed bombers, they clash with the NeoLemmix philosophy to use instant bombers. Actually the timed bombers are pretty hard to place precisely, which adds executional difficulties which we want to avoid.
- They have an extremely diverse appearance, so players may not readily recognize them as radiation objects. Or they might confuse them with slowfreeze objects...

4) Slowfreeze objects
They have the same disadvantages than radiation objects, and seem to even less useful. The only really nice level making use of them (that I remember) is nin10doadict's "Do you feel a draft?" (Twitchy 11 of Casualemmings). But this level would work almost equally well with a radiation object instead.

All of the four features add to the complexity of the game, especially as they don't teach a new player immediately what they do: Do disarmers work on teleporters or continuous traps as well? For slowfreeze and radiation objects, the player has to wait 9 seconds until seeing a result and no way of knowing in advance whether it would be stoning or exploding. As we moved to instand bombers, they might not even recognize the number above the lemmings' heads as a countdown, if they haven't played the original game before.

For all these reasons I think that NeoLemmix would be better off without these four features. Unfortunately we already had them for quite some time and there are several levels out there using them and I don't want to incur the wrath of a lot of level designers when I suddenly decide for myself to remove all of them from NeoLemmix.
So I propose to do the following:
- Completely remove triggered animation objects and remove support for them. Currently existing objects would be automatically converted to (movable) background objects.
- Completely remove the slowfreeze objects from the game. Currently existing slowfreeze objects would just disappear. Such levels would certainly need some modification from the designer in order to be kept.
- Keep support for disarmers and radiation objects in the NeoLemmix player, but mark them as deprecated. In other words no new level should use them and you couldn't add them in the editor.

[Proxima]

I agree that NeoLemmix has too many features / skills / objects for my tastes, and it makes a lot of sense to cull the least useful and most annoying ones. But the four listed above are very different from each other. The disarmer may not be very useful, but it does little harm just by existing (it makes the number of skills a prime, 17, and the player could forget which traps are already disarmed, or parse a level wrongly by not realising a disarmer is available). Triggered animations, as you say, are misleading. Radiation and slowfreeze objects are very annoying because they nearly always come with execution difficulty of getting the lemming to explode in exactly the right place. So I'd be happy to see these go, but the disarmer should be kept if there's enough existing content that uses it. It would be useful to know, for example, which of namida's packs first introduced these features and how many levels they are in, in that first pack.

- Keep support for disarmers and radiation objects in the NeoLemmix player, but mark them as deprecated. In other words no new level should use them and you couldn't add them in the editor.

The trouble with this way out is that new players come along, play namida's packs, get introduced to this feature as a regular part of the game, and then wonder why they can't use it in the editor. It's really much better to take a good, hard look at exactly how much the feature is contributing, and then make a hard decision one way or another.

[nin10doadict]

I'm in agreement about the triggered decorations. While they could potentially be neat, they are misleading and don't really add anything to the gameplay.
Radiation and slowfreeze levels are admittedly difficult to make without just being obnoxious. Still, I think I've helped to prove that it can be done in Casualemmings. I'm not so sure I'd like to see them just go away.
The disarmer is kind of in the same boat. There are often other ways to get around traps, but that would require giving out more skills to circumvent them, skills that could be used elsewhere to break something. Making a level where the disarmer stands out is a matter of managing the disarmer's location compared to the rest of the lemmings. I think that 'Fixed Ascent' in namida's Introduction Pack does this well.

[mobius]

note: your link to Casuallemmings doesn't work

I'm probably not a very good judge on any of these things because I haven't been making many levels at all lately but anyways;

1) While I'm sad to see it suggested I must agree; I've not seen it used in an extraordinary way and I've not used it much myself. But I haven't played much of namida's or anyone's latest packs and have in general not been in a level making mood.

2) I didn't even know about this. It sounds bad.

3) I actually really don't care about either the radiation or slow freeze. I've not been even remotely inclined to use these. I don't know why they turn me off but I just never felt interested in them in the slightest.

If anything I'd support keeping disarmers but I really wouldn't be super sad if they were removed.

[IchoTolot]

I must say, I really like the disarmer. I've made some nice levels with it, most of them aren't even released yet.
We are also way past the point of removal for them in my opinion. So many packs and levels make use of them now by many different people (Namida, Flopsy, GigaLem, nin10doaddict, Strato, my unreleased stuff..........). Just because it isn't the most innovative skill doesn't really justify the removal anymore at this point.

Point 2 can go no question.

I am not a fan of 3 or 4, never used them, but I would understand that the people who like using them get their will here, as my argument I made for the disarmers can be made here as well, even if those objects are way less frequent than disarmers.

[IchoTolot]

Another disarmer advantage over the replacement with other skills:

The disarmer skill can travel on a specific lemming over the map. Another skill like a builder can be used by every lem who encounters the trap, not the disarmer!
If you have 1 disarmer and need to overcome 2 traps, the disarmer lemming needs to get to both traps and remove the obstacle. Not just every lemming, the disarmer lemming. Here the skill gets much more interesting. Also with pre-assigned skills and basic level design you can precisely define the traveling disarmer lem.
Also it replaces a bunch of other skills if multiple traps need to be disarmed.
That usage might be a bit rarer, but I still think most people don't use the skill to it's full potential yet as they only see the simple disarming function


In comparison to other skills it's also extremely fast and doesn't introduces new backroutes easily. It also can be a good delaying skill.

[GigaLem]

Triggered decorations I say so but for everything else, I'd say keep
My solution for making Radiation/Slowfreeze easier to use is to have a sketch that shows how long it takes for the timer to count down (for walker,Faller, Floater and Glider) so I could think of better Ideas for it
and Disarmer I feel could have a better use or an additional use
-if a zombie were a disarmer, It'll fix a dead trap
-have a locked/Dead option for traps and exits
-locked exits without switch(es) would need a disarmer to open them
-and dead traps would be auto-disarmed upon starting the level (Redundacy I know but hear me out) you can set it up in such a way that Zombie puzzles may be wider in their horizon

I hope you can consider these because, I'd still want to make puzzles with them and I don't want to heavily rework graphic sets

Edit:I'd think it'd be better to rework theses instead of getting rid of them yet, like have extra options for each of them I'll already thought of another feature for the Radiation or slowfreeze

[mobius]

Another disarmer advantage over the replacement with other skills:

The disarmer skill can travel on a specific lemming over the map. Another skill like a builder can be used by every lem who encounters the trap, not the disarmer!
If you have 1 disarmer and need to overcome 2 traps, the disarmer lemming needs to get to both traps and remove the obstacle. Not just every lemming, the disarmer lemming. Here the skill gets much more interesting. Also with pre-assigned skills and basic level design you can precisely define the traveling disarmer lem.
Also it replaces a bunch of other skills if multiple traps need to be disarmed.
That usage might be a bit rarer, but I still think most people don't use the skill to it's full potential yet as they only see the simple disarming function


In comparison to other skills it's also extremely fast and doesn't introduces new backroutes easily. It also can be a good delaying skill.

I agree with this. I feel like the skill has potential even though it is underused atm.

[Ryemanni]

I'm going to add my opinions to the mix:

1. Even though disarmers might be rarely used, I don't think it should be removed. One thing I'd like to see though is for the animation to be changed. I never really liked it that the animation is the same as digger's. I can even make some proposition animations for it.
2. I'm fine if triggered animations go. They are jsut confusing.
3. and 4. I've never used Radiation or slowfreeze and I have never seen levels which use them super cleverly.

[Nepster]

To give you some more information how much impact culling these features has, I have compiled a bit of actual usage data.

1) Disarmers
IchoTolot sent me one of his unreleased levels using a disarmer, but again with slight terrain changes, the disarmer could be replaced with other skills (though IchoTolot tells me, my solution is still a backrotue).
Similarly for the Introduction level "'Fixed Ascent": One could easily create a very similar level with a climber who has to dig down pillars or gliders that spend time bridging gaps, or...

I agree with this. I feel like the skill has potential even though it is underused atm.

In comparison to other skills it's also extremely fast and doesn't introduces new backroutes easily. It also can be a good delaying skill.

Well, if it has potential, then I haven't really seen it yet. It's also true, that it has some nice features, but again they doesn't really seem to be useful regarding creating new puzzles.

-if a zombie were a disarmer, It'll fix a dead trap
-have a locked/Dead option for traps and exits
-locked exits without switch(es) would need a disarmer to open them
-and dead traps would be auto-disarmed upon starting the level (Redundacy I know but hear me out) you can set it up in such a way that Zombie puzzles may be wider in their horizon

Zombie-disarmers already disarm traps (as far as I know), but this, too, turned out to be barely useful. All other ideas add new types of objects with new complexity. These new types all feel of questionable usefulness to me, so I would rather spend some time implementing other more wanted new features.

I went through three packs to list all of their disarmer levels:

namida's 'LemPlus IV' (80 levels)

Candy Mountain (Bumpy 11): Same idea would work with building over the traps.
Overclocked Lemmings (Insane 19): Without the disarmer and the traps, the level would remain largely the same. Just some timing issues would become far easier.

nin10demo's 'Casualemmings' (75 levels)

Squishy and Splodey (Clam 9): Introductory level to disarmers. Not really anything special.
Sewer rodents (Calm 22): It's an 20-of-everything level that has a lot of different solutions, even without disarmers. Actually one could make a case that it becomes more interesting without disarmers...
Freeze frame (Perky 4): The main idea here doesn't need disarmers at all.
YumYums (Twitchy 6): Currently possible without disarmers. As this is a classical "contain crowd while one worker lemming creates the path" removing the disarmer would make the leel even more interesting.
To each his own (Twitchy 10): The disarmer created a backroute here. See the replay I will post soon in the level pack's topic.
Operations: Super Rescue (Twitchy 18): Again the level would work equally well without the disarmer, if one removes the traps right next to the exit.

Strato Incendus's 'Paralems' (150 levels)

Taming the beast (Harmless 12): Mainly an intro level to disarmers. It's repeat is the actual puzzle level and doesn't give you disarmers.
Twilems (Harmless 16): Here the disarmer adds nothing to the level - just turn the first lemming coming to the only trap into a disarmer.
Praise Kek (Harmless 23): A level with multiple solutions. Replacing the disarmer with another skill doesn't take anything away from the level, in my opinion.
The Phantom Lemace (Harmless 25): One disarmer and one trap.
The Path of Senses (Harmless 29): One disarmer and one trap.
Torture Pit (Disturbing 5): Lots of traps for the disarmer to work on. But the level would basically play the same if one would give the worker-lemming other stuff to do.
Have you seen my screwdriver? (Disturbing 10): This is (supposed to be) a level about getting the disarmer pick-up skill. While it needs in its current form the disarmer, one could replace it with a climber if one changes the terrain a bit.
All lemmings must die (Disturbing 29): 10 disarmers for just one poor dragon is overkill...
Throw me a lifeline (Disgusting 15): One disarmer and one trap.
Mary had a little lem (Disgusting 17): A multiple solution level, where giving a disarmer makes sense. Still it's only there for convenience.
In memory of Steve Irwin (Disgusting 18): This has a disarmer pick-up skill, but so far away that it is simpler to solve the level without it in my opinion.
Ready for takeoff (Abhorrent 10): This gives a disarmer pick-up skill, but I don't see any way to even get to the traps...
Luring lemming into mouse trap (Abhorrent 12): Apart from a backroute, that doesn't touch the disamer pick-up skill, this would work equally well if one replaces the traps by water.
Attack of the Clones (Demented 12): Depending on the solution used, the one disarmer and the two traps might pose a problem. But the level works equally well without the disarmer.
Halt the execution (Demented 18): If one wouldn't have the disarmer skills, one could just use two builders to bridge the trap. Nothing more would change.
Parkour of Pain (Demented 23): Having only one lemming and a disarmer skill, having traps to disarm around seems pretty redundant.
Six heroes, one destiny (Demented 25): While having a disarmer, it's not really of much use.
It's FEEDING Time (Demented 29): This has a disarmer pick-up skill, but so far away that it is simpler to solve the level without it in my opinion.

Summary: 26 of 305 levels use the disarmer skill. But of those only one or two are better off with the disarmer. Most work equally well with just the other skills.

3) Radiation objects
Again I list the usage in the three level packs:

namida's 'LemPlus IV' (80 levels)

Cosmic Ray Zone (Bumpy 2): Intro level. More annoying than interesting, in my opinion.
Lem Youe Lem Could Small Like (Bumpy 17): Slight terrain and skill changes would enforce the same solution, even without the radiation object.
A Universal Production (Twisted 14): That's a pretty nice level and requires radiation objects.
Ooh, Shiny! (Insane 4): This level, too, relies on radiation objects,.

nin10demo's 'Casualemmings' (75 levels)

Tick-Tock lemmings (Perky 1): Introductory level to radiation objects.
Lem in da hood (Perky 7): Just uses them like fire traps.
Two for the price of one (Perky 11): Yes, nice use there.
Thou dost ask too much (Hyper 4): Nice use of the radiation object there, but the level doesn't require it, as far as I can tell: Remove the radiation object and one walker, add a triggered trap at the radiation object's position and give a second miner.

Strato Incendus's 'Paralems' (150 levels)

Strato Incendus's 'Paralems' (150 levels)
Lethal dose (Disturbing 18): This is more about placing times bombers correctly, than about radiation objects.
One-man building company (Disgusting 11): A gap would have worked equally well here.
Dispose of failed exemplars (Abhorrent 29): Essentially the same as "Lethal Dose".
Attack of the Clones (Demented 12): Given the save requirement, it's basically used as a trap.
Only over their dead bodies (Demented 13): This makes actually good use of the radiation object.
Detonate on collision (Demented 17): If one replaces the radiation object with a pick-up bomber, the only change would be that the timing is a lot easier.

Summary: 14 of 305 levels use a radiation object. About half of them use it in rather creative ways. But is usefulness in about 2.3% of all levels enough reason to keep it, especially as it introduces timing issues?

4) Slowfreeze objects
Apart from the two levels in Casualemmings, I don't know of any level, that makes good use of them. Paralems has a few levels using them as continuous traps, and I haven't seen it LemPlus IV. That makes the slowfreeze objects even less useful than radiation objects.

[Nepster]

Simon reminded me of some other features to cull:

5) Anti-splat pads
They are extremely similar to updrafts. So I would like to combine these two object types. This could be done in two ways:
a) Turn the current anti-splat pad into an updraft object.
b) Remove the anti-splat pad completely from the new-formats version, but automatically place an updraft object there instead.
Any thoughts?

6) Object setting 'Fake' and 'Invisible'
So far we haven't removed them, because about 5 rather old levels use them and we wanted to preserve their aesthetics. I don't consider this nearly enough reason to keep them. Unless an overwhelming number of replies demands to keep them, they will not be supported in the stable new-formats version of NeoLemmix.
Invisible objects would just become visible, and fake objects would just be removed from the level.

[Simon]

I'm 50:50 on the Disarmer and wouldn't like to advise either way. I agree that it's the weakest skill, but it has culture depending on it. I'll leave this to whoever knows more about the existing culture. In large systems, you can remove any single feature, the remaining features will cover 99 % of the hole. If disarmer stays in the game, add a broken trap anim or at least autogenerate single frame.

Triggered deco, remove. Sounds like most use cases would merely obscure the level or look like traps.

Radiation and slowfreeze, weird. I assume slowfreeze got added merely because stoner is similar to exploder. Can probably remove slowfreeze. That's already helpful since there was confusion between the two. Don't want to judge radiation, let's say I'm 50:50. Timed exploders feel out of place, but radiation seems to enable a few fun tricks.

Anti-splat pads: a) gives excellent backwards-compat, even if not 100 %. With b), I'd be afraid of differently-sized updrafts replacing the smaller pad. Or do you already support resizable updrafts?

Fake and invis: Kill them with fire. <3

-- Simon

[Nepster]

Anti-splat pads: a) gives excellent backwards-compat, even if not 100 %. With b), I'd be afraid of differently-sized updrafts replacing the smaller pad. Or do you already support resizable updrafts?

The new-format supports resizing of updrafts, so that's not an issue, though the height of the trigger area will probably not be exactly the same, but slightly bigger. But that should have only very little impact as long as we preserve the top border.

[IchoTolot]

The "disarmer can be replaced by other skills" argument I would call weak here to be honest. You could replace all climbers with enough builders or even the miner with enough bashers and diggers

Often a single disarmer does the job of 5+ other skills, which all can lead to backroutes. It's just cleaner. Not to mention the terrain changes that would need to happen.

You listed the disarmer levels of 3 packs, but there are many more: Lemmingbytes, LemmingsPlus 5/Omega II, MegSEBytes, SEBLems, Resident GigaLems........

The skill usage begins at the early stages of NL, if a culling case was really viable the last chance would roughly have been around the culling of the gimmiks. I would not only call the skill useful enough to stay in the game, but now also the content ammount using it is too big for a complete cull.



Anti-splat-pats are just more restricted updrafts to me. I would say cull here.

[mobius]

I agree with Icho; that's a weak argument. Just because you could acheive X with other skills or another set up, doesn't necesarily mean X is worthless. For one thing it may just be neat in it's own right even if it does do the same thing as something else. I'm considering this feature in it's own merit;
it's a somewhat simple (to understand) skill that makes sense and comes naturally out of the game. It also doesn't cause major problems and glitches (unlike other skills).

As to working with teleporters and what-not: It seems pretty logical to me to assume (as a new player) that the disarmer should only disable bad devices.

I disagree it's the weakest skill btw; I think Walkers are weakest skill because they're overpowered. But in this case; I just personally ignore them (most of the time), I won't argue to remove them.



5) Similar to my thoughts on radiation; never had much inclination to think about these. Being similar to updrafts is a good point. Now this is a case where I can agree with the argument that it functions the same as another device.... I'm tired of writing and lost my thought so I'm not going to ramble on anymore but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

6) I'm shocked these are still present after all of the ranting.

btw; I think feedback is important. And even if 'a lot of levels use something' the feedback should be considered. I made levels with invisible exits and since nobody likes them anymore and everybody and their mother complained; so I got rid of them.