NeoLemmix New Feature Poll - Preparation Topic

[Nepster]

I will soon release the new-formats version to convert graphic styles and level packs. Only some more testing needs to be done. After that it will be lots of bug-fixing for me, and hopefully I will have at least some time to work on new features in NeoLemmix.
There have been a lot of suggestions for such new features in the previous months - far more than I will be able to implement in a reasonable amount of time. So I have to decide which of them to do first (or at all), for which I need your help and opinion: Starting from next weekend, September 9th, there will be a poll on exactly this topic. But to start this poll, I first have to know what features you would like to see implemented! Therefore:
Please add to this topic all your feature wishes that you would like to see implemented! Please do so until September 9th.

Here are the ones I will definitely put on the poll:
1) New skill: Shimmier
A new skill similar to the L2 shimmier. However it will not jump forward, but straight up to catch the ceiling. Otherwise it would be far too powerful.

2) New skill: Jumper
Pretty much a copy of the L2 jumper of the lix jumper, except that it will become a faller (i.e. move diretly down) instead of a tumbler (i.e. still move forward a bit), because that's far easier to implement.

3) Level wrap
Add support for levels that wrap horizontally and/or vertically, similar to the Lix feature.

4) Grouping of terrain pieces
Similar to the Lix feature: You can combine several terrain pieces (erasing or not) to a single piece and work with it as it would be one of the standard pieces in the editor.

5) Add download of styles via the editor
With the old editor you could download styles from the NeoLemmix homepage. The new-formats NeoLemmix player will have this feature, too. But currently it is missing in the new-formats editor.

6) Multi-use pick-up skills
Pick-up skills that give you more than one of a given skill, as proposed originally by Raymanni.

7) Single-use triggered animation objects
Similar to the current triggered animation objects, but these could only triggered once, not every time a lemmings moves into their trigger area.

8) Neutral lemmings
Such lemmings would behave exactly like usual lemmings, with the main difference that the player may not assign any skills to them.

9) Exits that only permit a given number of lemmings
These exits only allow a pre-determined number of lemmings to exit, then shut.

10) Exits that only permit lemmings with a certain skill
These exits only allow lemmings with a pre-determined permanent skill to exit. All other lemmings will just walk past.

PS: I went through the various topics to collect the suggestions that seem still up-to-date. Please forgive me if I missed any other you proposed and please post them yourself.
PPS: I reserve the right to disqualify your suggestion, if it is technical (almost) impossible, like getting NeoLemmix to run on Linux, or if it's too much against the current spirit of the game, like adding an option to disallow any framestepping.

[GigaLem]

Here are the ones I will definitely put on the poll:
1) New skill: Shimmier
A new skill similar to the L2 shimmier. However it will not jump forward, but straight up to catch the ceiling. Otherwise it would be far too powerful.

2) New skill: Jumper
Pretty much a copy of the L2 jumper of the lix jumper, except that it will become a faller (i.e. move diretly down) instead of a tumbler (i.e. still move forward a bit), because that's far easier to implement.

3) Level wrap
Add support for levels that wrap horizontally and/or vertically, similar to the Lix feature.

4) Grouping of terrain pieces
Similar to the Lix feature: You can combine several terrain pieces (erasing or not) to a single piece and work with it as it would be one of the standard pieces in the editor.

5) Add download of styles via the editor
With the old editor you could download styles from the NeoLemmix homepage. The new-formats NeoLemmix player will have this feature, too. But currently it is missing in the new-formats editor.

6) Multi-use pick-up skills
Pick-up skills that give you more than one of a given skill, as proposed originally by Raymanni.

7) Single-use triggered animation objects
Similar to the current triggered animation objects, but these could only triggered once, not every time a lemmings moves into their trigger area.

8) Neutral lemmings
Such lemmings would behave exactly like usual lemmings, with the main difference that the player may not assign any skills to them.

9) Exits that only permit a given number of lemmings
These exits only allow a pre-determined number of lemmings to exit, then shut.

10) Exits that only permit lemmings with a certain skill
These exits only allow lemmings with a pre-determined permanent skill to exit. All other lemmings will just walk past.

First I'll state my opinion on each of them before thinking of something else

The New Skills
I'm always up for widening level horizions (without becoming Lemmings 2) but with the current engine that's only in the "Fixed physics base" A jumper probably wouldn't be possible.
Maybe we'll think about another skill

Level Wrap
I guess that's one way of bringing back a gimmick, I'm surprised it was culled in the first place.

Grouping Terrain pieces
I don't find much of a use for this, Pass!

Downloading Styles
It's expected at this point.

Multi-use pickup skill
I'd call it the "pickup skill box" I'M ALL FOR THIS!

Single use Triggered animation objects
Didn't you want to cull this? I mean I get the purpose but still, but I wouldn't find it that interesting.
If anything I feel a weather theme animated backgrounds would be better

Neutral Lemmings
I get the added challenge but I can't think of much I would do with them.
I think the better Idea would be, They can only be assigned one skill each.

Limited exits and Permanent skill exits
THIS WILL GET RID OF BACKROUTES LIKE NOTHING ELSE, go with it!

And now for my ideas
[player]View Background color only
For anyone who doesn't want to get distracted by complex backgrounds, you go to the settings in the player and turn on "View background color"

[editor]Set custom background color
As well as having no background there can also be set your own background color, like in lix you just set an RGB co-ordinate
additional feature
-Gradient Background Check

That's all I have for now so comment if you wish

[Simon]

I should write longer essays on the Lix features: grouping, torus, jumper without tumbler. Some of those eat dev-time. But this is gathering of requirements, not the final debate on any idea's merit. Please nudge me in IRC for essays.

I like Giga's idea that disables all bg other than the simple bg color. That sounds like it removes a lot of worry without reaching for clear-physics all the time.

A level-browsing feature where I type a string, and the game offers a list of levels whose names contain the string. Maybe even update the list while typing, like google search when JS is enabled. Makes sense even within a single levelpack, but most powerful across packs. I miss this in Lix because I always forget where levels are sorted. I cherry-pick like mad, I play levels mainly because they're hotly discussed.

Markers on hatches that show permanent abilities. Optimize for 0, 1, or 2 abilities per hatch. It's fine if it looks ugly when the hatch assigns 5 permanents.

Merge exit tops with exits, thereby cutting topless exits and loose tops. I don't know if this is already part of the migration to new-formats. Again 100 % backwards compat physically, but hardly visually. I don't know what the consensus on Utopia was: Icho considered Utopia a strong argument to keep loose tops, I disagreed.

Merge closed and open exit during level design. During play, all exits should be closed when there are unpushed buttons, otherwise, all exits should be open.

Have many animations for some gadgets: Exits animate as closed exit, opening exit, open exit. Idling anims for triggered traps. Broken anims for disarmed traps. Maybe more that I forgot. Maybe even open hatch animates, maybe hatch closes when all lems are out, but can easily be overkill.

Remove decoration gadget, because there is no need for it anymore: Exit tops are merged with exits, and everything else should be moving background. For backwards compat, all remaining decoration becomes moving background?

Cut fake and invis gadget flags. Backwards compat is trivial: Ignore invis flag, therefore draw the gadget normally. Remove gadgets flagged fake. (Hatches draw their own markers for permanent abilities, no need to add unrelated gadgets.)

Cut splatpads. Can't have perfect backwads compat; remove and hope. If you want to kill lems coming from above, use fire. (The survivor pads carry more design substance and I don't mind them as much, even though I consider them unnecessary. You should redesign the level to shorten the fall.)

The object-orientation of the gadgets is really sad: Background wallpapers are gadgets, but you can't put them in the level at arbitrary positions. Even terrain behaves more similar to most gadgets than background wallpapers behave similar to most gadgets, yet terrain is not a gadget.

-- Simon

[nin10doadict]

Level browsing - No real opinion here.
Merging the exit with the exit top objects seems fine to me. I've not seen a level that uses the exit top for anything particularly artistic without having it attached to an exit, and topless exits tend to look dumb.
Hatch markers could be nice, though oftentimes people put dummy pickups near the hatches to indicate what permanent skills will come out of there anyway.
No open and closed exits at same time seems fine to me; I never even thought of trying to use both at the same time and it seems kind of limited as to what puzzles you could make with it.
Extra animations for objects could be neat. Some traps tend to blend in with terrain pieces; if they had idle animations then they would stand out more. I could definitely see this for creature-type traps at the very least.
Fake and Invisible objects are pretty dumb, honestly. They just invite troll levels and I don't think NeoLemmix really has a place for troll levels, especially with the clear physics button. That's more of a classic Lemmix thing.
I disagree with cutting splat pads. A few levels involve having to destroy the ground under the splat pad to nullify the danger. You can't do that with fire. You could build a bridge over the fire, but you can't survive fire with a floater or glider.

[Nepster]

First of all: This is a topic to list new or old feature ideas, not to discuss them!

[player]View Background color only
For anyone who doesn't want to get distracted by complex backgrounds, you go to the settings in the player and turn on "View background color"

The option "Disable Background Images" does exactly that. There is actually no option to disable background colors at all.

[editor]Set custom background color
As well as having no background there can also be set your own background color, like in lix you just set an RGB co-ordinate

Thanks for that. Will include this in the upcoming poll.
Regarding gradient backgrounds: They are far more difficult to implement, both setting them up in the editor and then drawing them both in the editor and the player. Moreover I need more information on the proposed feature itself: Do you want gradients just in one direction? If so, then it which? Or do you want to add gradients in any direction, which would require even more code? Why is adding one background image with a fixed rainbow grading insufficient?

A level-browsing feature where I type a string, and the game offers a list of levels whose names contain the string. Maybe even update the list while typing, like google search when JS is enabled. Makes sense even within a single levelpack, but most powerful across packs. I miss this in Lix because I always forget where levels are sorted. I cherry-pick like mad, I play levels mainly because they're hotly discussed.

Thanks, will include this in the upcoming poll. It will certainly not be as useful and versatile as the google feature and likely to be based ony simple regex search, but it's certainly worth considering.

Markers on hatches that show permanent abilities. Optimize for 0, 1, or 2 abilities per hatch. It's fine if it looks ugly when the hatch assigns 5 permanents.

Hatch markers could be nice, though oftentimes people put dummy pickups near the hatches to indicate what permanent skills will come out of there anyway.

I plan to do this regardless of the poll outcome. So don't worry if you miss it in the poll. Yes, pick-up skills are a way around this, but they are not perfect, as Strato Incendus correctly observed.

Merge exit tops with exits, thereby cutting topless exits and loose tops. I don't know if this is already part of the migration to new-formats

Already contained in the new-formats version.

Merge closed and open exit during level design. During play, all exits should be closed when there are unpushed buttons, otherwise, all exits should be open.

Have many animations for some gadgets: Exits animate as closed exit, opening exit, open exit. Idling anims for triggered traps. Broken anims for disarmed traps. Maybe more that I forgot. Maybe even open hatch animates, maybe hatch closes when all lems are out, but can easily be overkill.

All of this require the same extension to object animations. So I will combine them to one feature item for the poll.

Remove decoration gadget, because there is no need for it anymore: Exit tops are merged with exits, and everything else should be moving background. For backwards compat, all remaining decoration becomes moving background?

Cut fake and invis gadget flags. Backwards compat is trivial: Ignore invis flag, therefore draw the gadget normally. Remove gadgets flagged fake. (Hatches draw their own markers for permanent abilities, no need to add unrelated gadgets.)

Cut splatpads. Can't have perfect backwads compat; remove and hope. If you want to kill lems coming from above, use fire. (The survivor pads carry more design substance and I don't mind them as much, even though I consider them unnecessary. You should redesign the level to shorten the fall.)

All of them are not feature request, but culling requests. Will add them to the culling thread, mainly because culling existing features deserves a discussion, not just a poll.

The object-orientation of the gadgets is really sad: Background wallpapers are gadgets, but you can't put them in the level at arbitrary positions. Even terrain behaves more similar to most gadgets than background wallpapers behave similar to most gadgets, yet terrain is not a gadget.

Well, the main misconception here is that background wallpapers are gadgets: They are not, neither internally nor in the editor. Nor should they be, because as they are optimized for drawing speed not flexibility, they don't share much code with regular objects. Yes, at some point in the past, they were just another type of objects, but that changed.
Will wait for clarification on the actual feature request, before adding this item.

[Simon]

Merge closed and open exit during level design. [...] Have many animations for some gadgets

All of this require the same extension to object animations. So I will combine them to one feature item for the poll.

Sensible.

Remove decoration gadget [...] Cut fake and invis gadget flags [...] Cut splatpads.

not feature requests, but culling requests. Will add them to the culling thread, mainly because culling existing features deserves a discussion, not just a poll.

Sensible to ditch these from the poll.

I listed these because I remembered some consensus, but I haven't researched properly. When these bother me again, I'll make a proper case in another topic. nin10doaddict even found an argument to keep splatpads, thanks.

The object-orientation of the gadgets is really sad: Background wallpapers are gadgets,

Well, the main misconception here is that background wallpapers are gadgets: They are not [...] Yes, at some point in the past, they were just another type of objects, but that changed.
Will wait for clarification on the actual feature request, before adding this item.

Then I have no suggestion anymore, and you can ditch this point entirely.

-- Simon

[Ryemanni]

My opinions to the first post:

1. I'm all up for this! I think that the shimmier which jumps straigh up will work.
2. I don't really know about the jumper that turns into a faller. I understand that it's the only tumbler-free option but would it work well or look good? I'd really just need to see it in action first before I can tell my final opinion.
3. This could make some interesting puzzles.
4. This is very important for me! Using multiple terrain pieces and objects from different tilesests is a hassle.
5. I didn't even know that the old editor had this feature, but it sounds good nevertheless.
6. Yes!
7. Wasn't triggered animations going to get culled? I think that only traps should be triggered.
8. I like it, but I don't think it has a high priority.
9. and 10. Yes! This is something I have always wanted in Neolemmix.

[Nepster]

7. Wasn't triggered animations going to get culled? I think that only traps should be triggered.

Well, it was a feature request that came up. I am saying nowhere that I am in favor of it or would like to see this as a part of NeoLemmix (which applies to a few other listed features as well), but if there is a lot of support for it, I will implement it nevertheless.

[mobius]

I'm assuming if this isn't the place to discuss them in detail then that will happen when the poll comes?

I hope you don't mind posting a lot; you can look through it and pick your favorites. I pulled a bunch from my huge personal list of my imaginary epic lemmings game.


new skill: runner
pretty much copy of L2 or Lix runner. Forgot they're different. L2's runner has interesting properties but I suppose Lix's version is far easier to implement. (fall directly down from a cliff apposed to "gliding" off or gaining horizontal distance.) Although I feel like; well I have other arguments to make that I'll make when the poll opens.

new skill: glue pourer or sand pourer or filler


Lemmings that can only be assigned a certain number of skills
By a number on them or above their head or something (sounds difficult to implement now that I think about it). After this number is used up they effectivley  become neutral lemmings.

idle animations for traps
Like Simon's idea for Lix; all traps move in a subtle way when idling. Especially if animating decoration of any kind is removed; this makes it easy to tell what is a trap and what is not. It can be very simple; as long as there is movement you'll see it immediatly. I'll even volunteer to make them for some (or all) of the existing traps from original graphics.

Dissapearing terrain
1 pixel layer of this vanishes and is removed after 1 lemming walks across.
To avoid confusion dissapearing terrain should be colored differently or perhaps animate in some fashion.

buttons to turn on/off objects
a button or switch (similar to exit unlock buttons) which are connected to ojbects; exits, traps, teleporters etc. Pressing them repeatadly enables/disables the object. If all objecst are forced to have a idle animation this is easy to determine for the player. This may need some complicated system for the editor.

glue
(got this idea from Marble Drop)
when a lemming walks onto glue spot it will get stuck and not move until another lemming walks into it. The next said lemming will then be stuck and pushes the first out. Only a skill like batter could remove a lemming from glue.

doors
See Lemmings revolution. Of all the weird features this one always stood out to me the most. It's easier to just show some examples of places I thoguht they were used at least somewhat effectively. They of course could've been used far more effectivley on that game overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzjKu-zNTOY&index=71&list=PL0750E99D04921FDE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AROar4q8OM

Doors are like steel. And kill lemming if they close when a lemming is walking over it's open state. Obviously if implmented in NL graphically it would need to be very different. Maybe difficult but not impossible.

Gravity!
I doubt this will get implemented but it's just so cool! Like the concept of ninja's. Who doesn't love ninjas? Sure it' much more effective killing people with guns and bombs but ninja's have that sexy appeal.

---note: I might remove some of these after thinking some more------
let me know if I should expand/explain any of these better. I have tons more but I picked the ones I liked most and/or I think have the most applicability and potential.

7. Wasn't triggered animations going to get culled? I think that only traps should be triggered.

Well, it was a feature request that came up. I am saying nowhere that I am in favor of it or would like to see this as a part of NeoLemmix (which applies to a few other listed features as well), but if there is a lot of support for it, I will implement it nevertheless.

I just wanted to say that's really nice policy; you were a good choice to take over as head of NeoLemmix

[Nepster]

I'm assuming if this isn't the place to discuss them in detail then that will happen when the poll comes?

The place to discuss them in detail is in separate threads dedicated to them, because that makes it easier to find the feedback again. I will link to every such thread in the upcoming poll thread. If you really want, you can post additional feedback in the poll topic, too. But here I just want to collect all the feature ideas to make sure I don't miss any of them.

new skill: runner
new skill: glue pourer or sand pourer or filler
Dissapearing terrain

Will add them in the poll.

Lemmings that can only be assigned a certain number of skills
By a number on them or above their head or something (sounds difficult to implement now that I think about it). After this number is used up they effectivley  become neutral lemmings.

This relies on neutral lemmings and it requires that we cull radiation and slowfreeze objects to free the space above the lemming's head for the number used in this context. Therefore I will not add it in this feature poll, but we can consider this in upcoming ones. And please make a separate thread to discuss them properly.

idle animations for traps

Already suggested by Simon above. Will be contained in the poll.

buttons to turn on/off objects
a button or switch (similar to exit unlock buttons) which are connected to ojbects; exits, traps, teleporters etc. Pressing them repeatadly enables/disables the object. If all objecst are forced to have a idle animation this is easy to determine for the player. This may need some complicated system for the editor.

This requires idling animations and has the problem how to make it clear what exactly the button will do. For this reason I will not add this in the feature poll and would recommend making a dedicated topic for this feature to discuss possible solutions to these problems.

glue

If you make a dedicated topic for this, I will add it to the feature poll.

doors
See Lemmings revolution. Of all the weird features this one always stood out to me the most. It's easier to just show some examples of places I thoguht they were used at least somewhat effectively. They of course could've been used far more effectivley on that game overall.

This needs a completely new type of pieces that are a mixture of objects (because they interact with lemmings) and terrain (because they stop lemmings when closed), that the current code cannot handle. So some major rework has to be done, which I am not prepared to do at the moment. Sorry.

Gravity!
I doubt this will get implemented but it's just so cool! Like the concept of ninja's. Who doesn't love ninjas? Sure it' much more effective killing people with guns and bombs but ninja's have that sexy appeal.

Sorry, but to implement gravity I will probably code half a year only on this with nothing else getting done. This is far too much work.

[mobius]

I will make a thread specifically for some of these I suggested.

on the glue/sand/filler

I mentioned all three and "OR" as I remember you stating somewhere that if you did consider doing this it would be only 1 of them. An idea I have actually is to create one that isn't an exact replica of any of them but some kind of new skill that combines then and takes benefits of all three of them and removes any weirdness/bugs of them. But this sounds like a tall order.


Lemmings can only be assigned a certain # of skills
I'm not going to make a topic/or bother to argue for this right now. ... or maybe I will...

buttons to turn on/off objects
I'll make a thread for this even if we don't start working on this any time soon.

glue
have to think about this. Got this idea from a totally different game; not sure if it will work well here.

[ccexplore]

Does a list exist somewhere of what game mechanics features (skills and object types) already exist in NeoLemmix?  Maybe it's a sign that I shouldn't even bother to post here, but I just realize that since I hadn't played much for a long time, I don't really know whether something I propose here is already in NeoLemmix or not.

negative skills

Kinda like pickup skills but in reverse, whenever a lix triggers them they reduce the amount of that skill by 1 or perhaps the amount shown (down to zero; I don't think we want actual negative skill counts but open for debate).

To make them effective I think they probably need to be more like traps rather than actual pickups, and be able to cover a relatively wide area so it's not trivial to go around them.  They may either present shortcut paths where player needs to decide if the sacrifice of skills is worth possibly saving other skills in going through that path, or a case where it leads to an actual pickup skill so you may be sacrificing some skills to get more of others.

conversion between neutral and non-neutrals

This obviously has to happen in conjunction with supporting neutrals in first place.  Some kind of object that can convert lemmings from one type to the other.

linked lemming

This may possibly already exists in the game in some form (cloners?).  The idea is to end up (likely via a new object type) with two lemmings that are linked so that certain things affecting one of the lemming, also affects the other.  For example, assigning skill to one will also cause the other one to start doing that skill as if also assigned (to be determined whether that happens for free or actually consumes an extra skill, the former being more interesting).  There are many, many other details to work through but you get the basic idea.

giant lemming

Probably too much work, but the general idea is some kind of object that can change the size of a lemming passing through them to change from normal to "double-size" (and perhaps also some way to change back, details to be determined).  They look twice as big and mostly behaves the same as regular lemmings, except terrain addition and removal skills effectively removes twice/4x the amount (just imagine expanding the masks involved accordingly, and adjust the movements during those skills by equal amounts to match the masks), and perhaps the safe fall distance could be doubled as well, or they jump twice as far if jumpers are implemented, etc.

limited entrance

Analogous to limited exits, where only a limited number of lemmings may come out of the entrance before it no longer produces any more lemmings.

[ccexplore]

While I'm not super crazy about these skills, I'm thinking that in place of the complexities of pouring skills, perhaps it's a little less complex to consider instead some of the projectile skills in L2 like the spear thrower, stone thrower and mortar/bazooka (without the L2 fling effect of the explosion).  It's easier since there is just one projectile's motion to track.  The common thread for those types of skills is that they allow the lemming to affect an area far away from the lemming itself, unlike basically all other skills.  The main disadvantages are that they usually require a good deal of open space to work effectively, and the player would likely often need some shadow-ish help to work out the trajectory.

[GigaLem]

[Player]Permanent Skill remover and converter
An object that act's similarly to the Radiation and slowfreeze
where if a bunch of lemmings with a permanent skill or skills attached to them walk through it, the field will remove that skill.
and the converter will do the reverse, lemmings that walk through em will be given a skill or skills.
And the player would show a marker of what skills they would give.

[Ryemanni]

[Player]Permanent Skill remover and converter
An object that act's similarly to the Radiation and slowfreeze
where if a bunch of lemmings with a permanent skill or skills attached to them walk through it, the field will remove that skill.
and the converter will do the reverse, lemmings that walk through em will be given a skill or skills.
And the player would show a marker of what skills they would give.

This is a good idea.