[Suggestion] Zombies interacting with buttons or pickup skills

[Strato Incendus]

I recently created this level called "Make yourself useful", where the player has to first bomb away the ground under some Zombie Blockers right beneath the trap doors to set them in motion. Each of these Zombies had a different pre-assigned skill (Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, and Climber), so they were to be released in the right sequence, lest the Climber Zombie would walk into the trap that the Disarmer Zombie should have taken care of first etc. Originally, I also wanted to use these Zombies to press the exit unlock buttons, and spent a lot of time on arranging the position of the Glider and the Swimmer Zombie for the sake of that, only to find out then that the triggers of the buttons don't respond to Zombies walking over them, but only to normal Lemmings.

Is there a way to change this? And perhaps, while we're considering that, also to make Zombies interact with pickup skills (i.e. when a Zombie walks over a pickup skill, the player gets that skill for their disposal)?

I have no idea how much effort would be necessary to do this, I just wanted to throw it out there because I believe it could give Zombies a lot more depth, or "design space", so to say, than having them only be strictly enemies 95% of the time. Currently, they can disarm or trigger traps for you, or become forced Bombers or Stoners by walking into radiation / slowfreeze - that's about it.

The ultimate thing would be to allow Zombies to enter exits as well, but instead of adding to your saved Lemming count they'd reduce it , meaning you'd have to defend the exit from the Zombies at all costs.

[IchoTolot]

If the Zombie ability to unlock buttons/enter exits is to change ---> all other levels have to adapt. Therefore the question has to be asked if a change is worth it, that all other zombie levels have to be rechecked and altered accordingly.

To make this an turn on/off option is not a viable option as this would lead to inconsistent game mechanics that are unclear to the player. They should be clear and consequent all the time.

I myself have no zombie levels to my name, but I know a ton of levels that use zombies to guard exit buttons and the exits themselves ---> this change would require all of these to be altered/or even rebuilt heavily.

Zombies are mindless for me --> they cannot perform any active action. They can be passively killed by a trap (the trap is the active part here) and have attributes they get at the start of the level (climber, glider,....).  A change would also mean to break this rule ---> zombies become active. If a change would be made it should be consequent ---> they can interact actively with everything not sometimes yes sometimes no.
This means there is already one conflict here: The disarmer zombie who is sort of active. But I would count this as a reasonable exception as the disarmer is a starting attribute, like a climber.

I see not much logical or gameplay gain here in the change (zombies are mindless creatures unable to actively interact to me) here while the cost of the change is very high (a ton of levels and replays have to be checked and redone).
So my vote would be a no.

[ccexplore]

Strato's suggestion is essentially the concept of "neutral lixes" that has been discussed for Lix, except applied to zombies (though alternatively I suppose you can also simply have neutrals as a separate type from zombies, especially since there are existing zombie behaviors that appear to conflict with the desired behaviors for neutrals).  For Lix multiplayer in particular, having neutral lixes that none of the players can directly control looks to be one of the more interesting new elements to consider, and perhaps there's a case for it for singleplayer as well.

Personally if I were to make a Lemmings-like game I would probably introduce neutrals first before even thinking about zombies, which always seemed a little gimmicky to me (though I suppose there are probably some good zombie levels out there that can change my mind on this).

[namida]

Zombies did originate as a gimmick feature, but was so popular and lead to enough interesting puzzles that it was kept even when all the other gimmicks were culled.

[Colorful Arty]

Putting in my two cents, I think it makes sense that zombies should trigger traps and buttons by walking into them, but not so much pickup skills, as zombies are considered "enemies" and thus should not give you skills they run into, but them walking on buttons should not be any different than normal lemmings doing so. Traps are "neutral", killing anything that touches them, lemmings and zombies alike. That's my mentality anyways.

[mobius]

Putting in my two cents, I think it makes sense that zombies should trigger traps and buttons by walking into them, but not so much pickup skills, as zombies are considered "enemies" and thus should not give you skills they run into, but them walking on buttons should not be any different than normal lemmings doing so. Traps are "neutral", killing anything that touches them, lemmings and zombies alike. That's my mentality anyways.

I agree with this. But I also add that it would probably be much easier to introduce neutral lemmings or something like that instead of changing zombies behavior.

[namida]

One way you can make use of zombies somewhat in this fashion is by using a setup similar to what Apocalypse 1 of Doomsday Lemmings does.

Spoiler

Have the zombies activate a triggered trap so that the normal lemmings can slip past.

[IchoTolot]

This brings me to an idea which could satisfy both sides and be consistant:

I've thought about the idea of neutral lemmings before as the scenario 1 group has to save another in time is hard to pull off if the to be saved group can be saved with skills. Neutral Lemmings can't be assigned those skills.

Zombies stay as they are: Passiv, mindless enemies.

- cannot pick up pick-up skills
- cannot enter exits
- cannot activate buttons
- cannot be assigned skills
- can be killed by traps

Neutral Lemmings are active allies:

- can pick up pick-up skills
- can enter exits
- can activate buttons
- cannot be assigned skills
- can be killed by traps

So my solution would be: Keep the zombies as they are and introduce neutal Lemmings (pre-placed and hatch spawning) in the future.

[Strato Incendus]

Neutral lemmings are an interesting idea, had never thought of that! So I guess they would behave sort of like the "green pants-blue hair"-lemmings in 2 Player-mode do when there's no second player around to control them? Minus pickup skills, of course; in a 2 player game, those would be given to the player who controls the lemming picking up the skill, instead of the single player who leads a neutral lemming to picking up a skill.

Putting in my two cents, I think it makes sense that zombies should trigger traps and buttons by walking into them, but not so much pickup skills, as zombies are considered "enemies" and thus should not give you skills they run into, but them walking on buttons should not be any different than normal lemmings doing so.

Yeah, that was kind of where I was coming from, too . I had only considered pickup skills and exits as a bonus option, but the reason I even considered suggesting a change regarding the behaviour of zombies was their inability to push buttons.

If we think about it from a flavour standpoint, it would actually make more sense for zombies to trigger buttons (by passively walking onto them) through their weight, but not being able to disarm traps. Instead, I have a level now where you have to use zombie disarmers to disable traps, but none where they need to push buttons ^^.

Anyway, we're arguing from a flavour or "realism" standpoint here; IchoTolot's argument is the "game mechanical" one, since he strives for consistency across all Neo Lemmix expansions, and I understand it would be a huge pain to have to rework all existing zombie levels (I'd have to do the same for mine, too) if we wanted to retroactively apply these changes to all packs.

However, with the pool of packs constantly expanding, I don't know how realistic this consistency approach can last in the long term. My brother is currently playing Oh No! More Lemmings in Neo Lemmix, and that pack for example still has timed bombers (because without them, e.g. the very last level "Look before you leap" would be totally broken). So there are already inconsistencies between packs. In Lemmings Revolution, you can use a bomber as a floater by giving the lemming something else to do before it blows up - then it stops being a bomber again. Also, you can use blockers as "terrain" because other lemmings land on their heads rather than just falling through them like in other games.

Hence, just as bombers switch between timed and instant between packs, I could imagine a similar setup for zombies. Consistency within a pack should still be strived for, so that the players know what set of rules they are dealing with.

Anyways, neutral lemmings as proposed for Lix certainly would be a good place to start. That would allow to experiment on completely new ground without touching the old stuff, and then, if the new element is appreciated, one could reconsider whether the option - not mandatory change for everyone - would be worth enabling for zombies as well.

Speaking of Lix: Would be pretty fun to smack the zombies around with that baseball bat, wouldn't it?

One way you can make use of zombies somewhat in this fashion is by using a setup similar to what Apocalypse 1 of Doomsday Lemmings does.

That's precisely how I changed that "zombie button presser level" then as a consequence: Making them run into one-use traps so the real lemmings are safe. Funnily enough, these mine traps look very similar to the exit unlock buttons from the metal tileset ^^, so they had the side effect of confusing the player a little.

[Nepster]

However, with the pool of packs constantly expanding, I don't know how realistic this consistency approach can last in the long term. My brother is currently playing Oh No! More Lemmings in Neo Lemmix, and that pack for example still has timed bombers (because without them, e.g. the very last level "Look before you leap" would be totally broken). So there are already inconsistencies between packs. In Lemmings Revolution, you can use a bomber as a floater by giving the lemming something else to do before it blows up - then it stops being a bomber again. Also, you can use blockers as "terrain" because other lemmings land on their heads rather than just falling through them like in other games.

Hence, just as bombers switch between timed and instant between packs, I could imagine a similar setup for zombies. Consistency within a pack should still be strived for, so that the players know what set of rules they are dealing with.

We had the timed/untimed bomber choice once, and similarly different max fall heights (for some backwards consistency), different hatch orders, and a few other such per-pack options. And then we removed all these physics options, because it was a big mess to check the exact physics for every pack you play. So even though the proposed changes for the Zombies would only require very few changes in the code, this will certainly not happen on a per-pack basis.
Note as well that the original lemmings, Lemmings Revolution and NeoLemmix are different games. What you are suggesting would result in one game NeoLemmix.exe having multiple game physics.

Originally, I also wanted to use these Zombies to press the exit unlock buttons, [...] And perhaps, while we're considering that, also to make Zombies interact with pickup skills

While I agree that the Zombie physics are certainly not perfect, this would completely change the usage of zombies. Currently they are guarding useful objects and the objective is to remove them somehow, so that the usual lemmings may get there. With your change, this would no longer be possible, but instead levels like the one you tried to make become viable. Therefore I am still not convinced that the changes proposed here increase the design possibilities.

Neutral lemmings

Adding a new kind of lemmings might indeed be the best option. It already decided that they will be added to Lix (at least for multi-player), so I would suggest waiting a bit to see whether they are well-liked in Lix.

Funnily enough, these mine traps look very similar to the exit unlock buttons from the metal tileset ^^, so they had the side effect of confusing the player a little.

Which is an extremely good reason not to use both of the in one level, so that the player will guess what they are depending on whether the exit is already open or not.

[Proxima]

Note as well that the original lemmings, Lemmings Revolution and NeoLemmix are different games. What you are suggesting would result in one game NeoLemmix.exe having multiple game physics.

To expand on this: NeoLemmix developed from the engine namida developed for his pack Lemmings Plus II. This engine was the first (of those based on the original game engine, unlike Lix which was built from scratch) to fix many of the old physics glitches such as sliding, steel-bashing, and nuke glitch. Because these glitches were a major source of hassle for level designers (players would exploit them to backroute levels rather than looking for glitch-free solutions), namida decided to make this engine available to everyone for building new content.

However, the LPII pack contained a few "gimmick" levels that altered the fundamental rules of the game, e.g. one was a "Karoshi" level that required you to kill lemmings instead of save them. So gimmicks were included in the engine, and over time this got out of hand, with over two dozen gimmicks existing (and they could even be combined). We had a forum discussion that resulted in the abandonment of gimmicks, except for zombies -- and they were "promoted" to a standard game element.

Namida decided to leave old versions of NeoLemmix available, so that players could still play old content from before the abandonment of gimmicks. However, if you say "NeoLemmix" with no further qualification, people will assume you mean the most up-to-date version. So, no, there is no such thing as per-pack timed bombers in NeoLemmix, only in obsolete versions. This does make some of the original levels trivial. We're okay with that, because we value consistency between packs over staying true to the original intentions in all cases. (And in some cases, we're not entirely sure of the original intentions, such as the debate over whether floaters should enter an exit with no terrain underneath.)

[IchoTolot]

I think one more thing about physics changes in general should be pointed out:

We don't make core physics changes, because it allows for a certain level idea to become possible.

The level idea must come from the existing physics themselves.

Physics changes are made when the current ones are buggy, highly unlogical, plain annoying, or the majority of the people is in favor of a senseful change. Then a follow up discussion leads to the final decision, where also elements like backwards compability with existing content is thrown into the mix, on change or no change + maybe also the best way to change it in the internal code.

Levels have to satisfy the physics, not the other way around. It's not simply "change the physics until your level idea becomes possible".

I still think the future addition of Neutal Lemmings with maybe the rules I posted above is the right idea here:

Zombies stay as they are: Passiv, mindless enemies.

- cannot pick up pick-up skills
- cannot enter exits
- cannot activate buttons
- cannot be assigned skills
- can be killed by traps

Neutral Lemmings are active allies:

- can pick up pick-up skills
- can enter exits
- can activate buttons
- cannot be assigned skills
- can be killed by traps

[Strato Incendus]

Note as well that the original lemmings, Lemmings Revolution and NeoLemmix are different games. What you are suggesting would result in one game NeoLemmix.exe having multiple game physics.

Ok, that's a fair point ^^.

Neutral lemmings
Adding a new kind of lemmings might indeed be the best option. It already decided that they will be added to Lix (at least for multi-player), so I would suggest waiting a bit to see whether they are well-liked in Lix.

Just started out on Lix, the main thing I'm missing is music. Otherwise, I kinda like it! With the neutral lemmings / lix, it would definitely be possible to smack them around with the baseball bat without getting infected.

Which is an extremely good reason not to use both of the in one level, so that the player will guess what they are depending on whether the exit is already open or not.

Or, in my case: To do precisely that!
Even though my pack is finished in its first draft (my brother is currently playtesting), I get the feeling some levels are too easy or too similar to what came before, so I might still swap some out. For that case, it's good to still have some further backup levels as substitutes .

Levels have to satisfy the physics, not the other way around. It's not simply "change the physics until your level idea becomes possible".

Yeah, no intention of asking for special treatment here , I didn't know the backstory of all these free-choice physics options. Different fall heights is kinda nuts. It's hard enough to adapt to that every time I get on with Lemmings 2: The Tribes again.

[namida]

NeoLemmix was somewhat limited in fall height options. It basically had two options - the standard fall height, or an alternative mode which increased the fall height by roughly 25% and also made a few other physics changes, because the goal wasn't "an option for a longer fall height" but rather "better compatibility for levels converted from Cheapo (an older Lemmings engine that is no longer used due to not working well on modern PCs)". Compare this to Lemmini / SuperLemmini, which literally do let you set the exact fall height on a per-level basis.

Levels have to satisfy the physics, not the other way around. It's not simply "change the physics until your level idea becomes possible".

To tell the full truth here - back in the early days of NeoLemmix, there was a couple of times when I changed the physics a bit just to enable a specific design I had in mind (one level in particular that I recall influenced physics is "Crossover Arena" from Lemmings Plus III; both the specifics of builder-basher interaction and the difficult-to-stop-ness of the basher were originally implemented just to make the intended solution to this level work - which was then made redundant when Nepster discovered a much nicer solution). Mind you, this was back when I was literally the only person making levels for it, and I certianly wouldn't think it acceptable now that a lot of content exists and many other people are using it - in fact, even without that, I'd say I think a lot differently regarding physics now compared to how I did back then.

[Ryemanni]

Just to give some more opinions on this matter: I like the idea of neutral Lemmings more than zombies who can push buttons and collect pickup skills.
If neutral Lemmings were to be added they should look notably different than normal ones though.