Community set, changes for Lix 0.7.x

[mobius]

levels of mine to fix/remove:

climb to freedom!  [decent level but not amazing. I might try to replace it]
6 gaps, 5 builders [pretty boring imo]
Path to Mahiman?  -- a lot of people said this level was tedious
Exit, Stage Right -- (I may improve this one)
Tower of Babel (I may improve this one)
Babylon Fading -- [I think I'd like to change/replace this one]
When the Levee Breaks [pretty boring imo]
A Soulful Bounding Leap [need to look into this one, I forget most of it]

Erbalunga by Pieuw. When I was making levels by Pieuw for this, it seems I picked the worst possible levels from him at the time, instead of the best. Not that this level is bad, but he has quite a few far better than those like this and Diggin' the air...

another funeral -- rename?

Passing engagement -- rename?

Conundrum -- I may rename this and add decoration

The Last Laugh ?? [can't remember this one well and I may change or replace it.

Lixes in Arms should have 1 imploder. [the intended solution though not required is to trap them in a builder bridge on the left so they're clumped together]


Stuff in the way by tseug -- this level does not work at all without a time limit! In any case if it's kept in this pack it's far easier (in current state) then Hopeless.

Tinker Tailor, eye of needle, I should test these levels, haven't played them in a long time.



I've uploaded "As Good As Dead" another new remake from a Mobilems level that got good reviews. If you'd like to me group my own levels and replacements together let me know. I've figured you(s) wanted to take care of that.

[Proxima]

I'm going away for a few days, but when I get back I'll have a look at all the latest posted levels and decide what to do with them.

I feel I should clarify the situation. We have made a couple of replacements recently to keep the pack in line with new versions of Lix, but in general, we've already gone through a long selection and ordering process, so I don't think we should make more replacements than necessary now. I will at least look at any levels posted here, but I will lean towards keeping the line-up as it is unless one of the new levels is clearly a lot better than one of the old ones.

[Proxima]

Replay for "As Good As Dead". Saves 19 with a spare floater.

[mobius]

In that case, I will do my best to make sure any replacements I suggest can match their old level's difficulty. Because some of these by me, I very strongly dislike [at least compared to recent levels I've made]. But I understand how tedious ordering the levels is so I don't want anyone to have to deal with that.

thanks for testing. That solution is a backroute but easily fixed. Wait, there shouldn't be a tree [moved the tree over so can't be reached with 1 builder. I'd like to keep the tree; I think it's nice decoration]
I removed it because I might make more changes to it.

I'll post again with a more detailed post and explinations. I'll try to keep this as organized as possible. My biggest problem I had with making Revenge of the Lemmings was keeping it organized. That was a dismal failure. [organizing it, that is, not the pack itself].

My replacement for Migration should be able to stay in the same place. But I will re upload everything later as well.

Solution to the 20-builder 5-platformer Make You Mine. Agree that it is still technical. Can swap it out if wanted, can keep it.

Sinking Ship looks good, haven't solved it yet, despite having solved Bulldozer. I'm good with the Bulldozer replacement or Sinking Ship.

I propose to ditch Digging the Air from Cunning and insert Theresa into Daunting. To keep ranks at 40 levels each, Proxima suggests to move Now This Is Fun from Daunting to Cunning. Okay with me, should be late Cunning.

-- Simon

I have a handful of levels of varying difficulty for possible entry. I can pick one that's equal difficult of Digging the Air's position to replace it OR one for Daunting if need be.

[mobius]

You may ignore my earlier posts and uploads.

EDIT: I forgot to add a new graphic I added to the game! [I will add this to the other topic as well]
place this in geoo/construction. It is required for Sauce for the Goose and Mass Lixicide.
I will make a formal post for this graphic once I improve upon it. [will try to do so as soon as I can]


These are levels of my own which I've embellished:
(these levels shouldn't need to change in rank (because of my alterations that is)

migration   >   solution improved (easier to execute? And less time-consuming) and decoration improved (changed graphic set (to gore) and title)
Five for Fighting   >   added a little decoration
Lixes in Motion   >   changed graphic set (to Toy)
Path to Mahiman?  -- a lot of people said this level was tedious   >   added a couple of walkers and reduced builders. Level should be less tedious now.
Exit, Stage Right -- (I may improve this one)   >   added decoration and altered solution a bit. Should remain about same difficulty. May require backroute testing but I doubt it.
Conundrum/GetBehindSatan   >   added decoration and changed title. Thanks also to those who updated this level to work without variable SI.
it takes time to build...   >   solution improved (easier to execute? And less time-consuming) and decoration improved (changed graphic set (to gore))
cold irons bound   >   changed solution a bit but difficulty should remain similar. I believe geoo proposed this solution a while ago but I rejected it at the time. Since the new SI I like this solution now.
Tower of Babel   >   graphic set changed (toy) and solution changed but overall difficulty I believe stays the same
over my head   >   changed graphic to lab and altered solution very slightly, difficulty should not be changed


These are possible replacements I'm requesting or suggesting. I've tried to match a level to replace in difficult but that proved a little harder than I thought.

The following are the levels I'm totally in favor of removing (some I do not like at all)

digging the air
Babylon Fading
When the Levee Breaks
A Soulful Bounding Leap
Erbalunga


the following levels I do not have anything strongly against but I'd be okay with letting them go:

another funeral (is a bit tedious and my original intended solution to this level never worked anyway, in Lix nor in NL).
The Last Laugh
Lixes in Arms
Stuff in the Way -- this level does not work at all without a time limit. In any case if it's kept it's far easier (without time limit) then Hopeless. -Perhaps this matter has already been adressed with the saw?

-----

the following are new levels that can be added as replacements: I'm estimating their difficulty which may vary greatly from you guy's opinions.

Ascension; a new level by me (from Mobilems2); was well liked in the past. Daunting difficulty.
As Good as dead; a new level by me (from Mobilems1 that was added later) was some people's favorites from my pack. Daunting difficulty I'm guessing. This is one that I was very surprised people found as difficult as they did.
Sauce for the Goose by t3tesla (original Lemmings in a Situation); Quirky or Cunning Difficulty; maybe Daunting
Babylon Fading; same title but this is a different level ( a remake of on of my Mobilems levels.(uses forest graphic set). Quirky or Cunning Difficulty; maybe Daunting
six ways to success by Martin Z; An interesting level with  many solutions (kind of like Dolly dimple). Quirky or Cunning difficulty.
Fallout by t3tesla (original Suicidal Tendencies); Cunning difficulty, maybe Quirky or Daunting

The Theresa level/Five Easy Steps: this needs testing to be considered.

Duality by Yawg. IMO (and some others) a very, very great level. Very difficult and fun. I highly recommend this first as a candidate to replace any higher tiered level for any reason. It is quite difficult; possibly fitting best in the last rank.
Mass Lixicide possibly daunting or vicious. Another unique and fun level.


--------------

[Simon]

Replays for all of moebius's changed and proposed levels. moebius: Please look through for backroutes. Most solutions are good, but some are egregious backroutes.

We didn't solve Path to Mahimah, cut that level entirely. We have so many excellent new levels. Cut Levee, Digging the Air and cut SoulfulLeap to make room.

Replace Babylon Fading with Babylon Fading if you'd like, but please rename Babylon Fading to avoid confusion with the old map. I don't see any connection in the first place between either level and that name.

All of mobius's re-themes are very good, use them all. In particular, replace Time to Build with the Gore set Time To Build. Nice level!

Keep Erbalunga. Especially Icho insists on keeping it, considering Erbalunga above pack average quality.

Maybe cut Oh no not again if Proxima likes a lot of mobius's levels, but the only criterion is ugliness.

Icho suggests reorderings concerning levels he knows from other packs. Will post this list later. That list will be mainly for Proxima.

-- Simon

[geoo]

Some comments, and solutions attached.

Updated levels:

Slaughterhouse: I really like the re-design, but check for backroutes.
Five for Fighting: I think the entire starting platform could be moved a little to the left, so the long builder aligns nicely when you build from the edge of the lower platform.
Lixes in Motion: Really like the re-design, and I think it's a nice level to keep.
Exit, Stage Right: Still not quite sure what's intended here. What I got looks like a backroute.
Conundrum/GetBehindSatan: I like the updated design. I think the old title was fine, but either title works I guess. Is it correct that I have a basher to spare?
cold irons bound: I don't remember which solutions I've found in the past, but the one I got now is nice.
it takes time to build...: Again, really like the redesign visually, but check for backroutes. I resorted to avoiding the climber to save time. Without that, it seems very tough to pull off. It looks like you need one more basher and lose one more lix than allowed. It is possible to do it as save 3 and saving a basher and 2 diggers, but it's very tight. Unless I'm missing something, I feel like it either should be lose 3 or lose 5; lose 4 is strange. Maybe the top gory block could be widened? I found another solution that saves 38 using an extra trick to speed up the building, I wonder how you feel about that one.
over my head: Again, great redesign visually, should take this one. I don't remember the original solution exactly so I can't tell the difference.
Tower of Babel: Definitely nicer than the original. I think it's a decent easy level, I think I remember Proxima didn't like it very much.
Path to Mahiman: I don't mind this level too much, it's a bit of variation from the levels around it. But it'd be better if you could change it so that you don't need builders at all, and cut the builders entirely. That'd also go much better with the labyrinth theme, if you cannot actually pass through walls.

New levels

Ascension: I really like the idea of this one. I'm wondering what's intended for the last bit, right now your solution allows for some very precise digger placement to get everyone home. I hope that's not intended, if it is, then you could adapt a variation.
As Good as dead: What I got looks like a backroute.
Sauce for the Goose: I think it's quite tricky, I used a few hacks to solve it.
Babylon Fading: I like the new level, and it's of moderate difficulty. I agree though it's a bit strange to keep the old title. Either way, I think it's a better level than the old one, but a bit easier.
six ways to success: My solution saves a lot of skills, but I can't see anything else offhand.
Fallout: Looks very interesting and had me stumped for a while, but my solution looks like a backroute in the end, I think the bomber placement is a bit precise.
The Theresa level/Five Easy Steps: Still not sure what the intended solution is, but I like the level either way.
Duality: I somehow remember this being harder. My solution feels a bit unsatisfying because of the hackjob I do at the top left. I don't like this zig-zaggy bit there, it's not quite clear what you can and can't do there.
Mass Lixicide: Really love this one. Maybe you could place the chains in such a way that the thin part is right above the platform, to make the blocker placement easier? I also suppose the extra builder is to get above the top-most blocker?

So from the new levels, in their current state my favourites are Mass Lixicide, Ascension, Babylon Fading and Theresa.

Levels to cut:

I think Path to Mahiman could add some nice variety if you can make a builderless version. So I don't think it should be cut necessarily.
Erbalunga is a good level, I agree. I think it's worth keeping.
Digging the Air and Levee I think it's fine to replace with something better. Soulful Leap I find to be an interesting level, and quite tricky for its position. A better candidate to cut IMO would be Roundabout, it's just visually not very appealing.
Another Funeral is a level which I quite like actually, I think the only thing is that it could do with some minor tweaks to ease execution (right now it needs timing to not block off any lix with the final builder). Though I wonder what you originally had in mind for it?
The Last Laugh is a pretty cool level in my opinion as well.

[Proxima]

I haven't looked at the new levels yet, but perhaps we can get the issues with the updated levels sorted out before moving on to those.

My replays are attached. Slaughterhouse, Five for Fighting, Lixes in Motion, Over My Head and Tower of Babel seem to have no issues.

Exit, Stage Right: The extra complications seem to have led to backroutes. I can't say how to fix this without knowing what solution was intended.
Conundrum: The redesign is fine, I prefer the old title.
Cold Irons Bound: geoo's second solution is nice, but if we're going to go with that, we have to remove the basher-on-steel solution somehow.
It Takes Time to Build: This looks backroutable by digging to the steel on the left, but if you do that, you uncover the water object behind the terrain. That should be fixed, I think. Otherwise, the level is probably okay; there are a few different ways to do it now, but it looks a lot better so I'd like to keep the redesign. Possibly remove the extra skills?
Path to Mahiman: This is improved with the reduced skills, so it's more of a puzzle now. Perhaps skills could be reduced further, either so that you have to find geoo's builder trick, or to avoid it somehow. (As I said, not making any decision on whether to cut this level until I've had a chance to have a proper look at the new levels.)

[Simon]

Re-rankings from the session with Icho.

From Hopeless:
Recycling Plant: easier by 1 rank
Bipolar Maniac/Top Shelf: easier by 1 rank
Parking Garage: easier by 1 rank
Tinker Tailor: easier by 2-3 ranks
Lix lies on Broadway: easier by 2-3 ranks (Simon: maybe only 1 easier)
Rhapsody in Blue: easier by 1 rank
Oh no not again: easier by 1 rank or cut entirely
Eye of the Needle: easier by 0-1 ranks

From Vicious:
Conundrum: easier by 1 rank
Betcha Can't Save: easier by 1 rank
Bashing and Building: harder by 1 rank
Hellfire: easier by 1 rank

From Daunting:
Dances with Lixes: harder by 1 rank (by Simon. It's harder than Elixir, both are good in Vicious.)
Death or Glory: harder by 1 rank
Lix who Japed: harder by 1 rank
Erbalunga: harder by 1 rank (and keep, don't cut)

We'd still cut Path to Mahiman even in the revised version and instead use one of mobius's new maps.

Rename Told You About Stairs with normal capitalization. All-caps rips apart the overall style of the pack despite possibly fitting the level.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Thanks, the above feedback is helpful even if I don't necessarily agree with all of it I certainly agree on "Bashing & Building", which is one of only four Vicious-and-below levels I haven't solved.

I'll have a thorough look through the pack and proposed new levels when I have time, and come to a final decision.

Since some of the "easier" verdicts may be based on backroutes, can I see your replays? Naturally I'm particularly curious about "Rhapsody in Blue".

"Recycling Plant" will probably stay put because it's good to have a relatively easy rank opener, and having a good-looking rank opener is also important.

[Nepster]

I haven't yet had a look at the new levels, just the updated ones. Here are some comments with me repeating lots of stuff that was already mentioned by others.

Slaughterhouse: I like this remake very much. But I would remove the sawblades, unless they are necessary. They simply don't fit together with the gore style, in my opinion.
Conundrum: While I like the added decoration very much, I prefer the old name.
Cold Irons Bound: I have two solutions, the first one is nice, the second feels like a backroute.
Exit Stage Right: Very likely a backroute, because I can save 19/20.
It takes time to build: Even though the new style is nice, I prefer the original level. There the layout was a lot clearer and it doesn't have the problem that one may separate a lix from the top to help building stuff at the bottom. Moreover all these sawblades look ugly.
Path to Mahiman: Unique idea, but the solution soon feels very repetitive. So I prefer to cull this one (if we have good replacement levels).
Tower of Babel: This has a glaring backroute by going down at the left edge and not doing anything with the bottom lixes. Otherwise I like the changed style.
Five For Fighting, Lixes in Motion and Over my head: Very nice remakes!

Now for the culling discussion (going through the list möbius proposed initially):
Digging the air: Agree to cull.
Babylon Fading: Agree to cull (the original version).
When the Levee Breaks: Agree to cull.
A Soulful Bounding Leap: This isn't a bad level. So I would only cull this if we need some more space and have a strong replacement.
Erbalunga: It's a nice level and there are other levels like "Breackout" or "Don't look back" that I would rather cull instead of Erbalunga.
Another funeral: I very much like the solution, but especially with the new digger mechanics the solution became a lot trickier to execute. So instead of removing it, I would prefer to simplify it's execution.
The Last Laugh: Yes, if we have a good replacement for this level among the proposals by möbius, this might be a candidate to replace.
Lixes in Arms: A better level than Last Laugh, in my opinion. Even if we had a very strong contender for its position, the question would be whether to replace this level or another one like "Cuber Replacement".

And finally regarding the reordering discussion:
Parking Garage: It should stay in Hopeless.

Spoiler for Parking Garage

I would even pose the question whether it shouldn't come even after "One Step Off", because it requires the same trick. But "One Step Off" hints at the trick, both with the title and the layout, while "Parking Garage" doesn't.

Tinker Tailor: It could be moved 1 rank down, but not more. Note that there have been several NL versions, with this being a backroute-fixed version of the harders NL version.
Lix lies on Broadway: For veteran players who know this trick, this is probably easy. But as far as I know this is the first time this trick appears in the lemforum pack. So a place in Hopeless is deserved.
Rhapsody in Blue: Should definitely stay where it is.
Oh no not again: While the solution is pretty easy itself, it is very hidden. So while we might move it 10 levels earlier within the same rank, it should stay in Hopeless (or be cut entirely).
Eye of the Needle: It is still harder than the first 10 levels in Hopeless, so while I am not against moving it to Hopeless 15 or similar, it should remain in Hopeless.
Conundrum: Feels prefectly fine at its current position.
Death or Glory: I don't think this is much harder than the other levels around it.
Erbalunga: I think mid-Cunning is fine for it, as it has a few solutions (one of them even having one basher and one digger spare).
I agree with all other suggestions for moving levels.

[mobius]

lol everytime I'm getting ready to post a new person comes with a ton of replays . It's taking me a little while to look over all the replays so give me a few days to reply. I've fixed several of the levels already.

[mobius]

thanks for all the comments.

levels fixed:
Cold Irons Bound
Exit Stage Right
It Takes Time To Build
Five for Fighting (geoo's suggestion)
Babylon fading (fixed and changed title)
Six Ways to Success, changed decoration a little bit as well
tower of babel
As Good as Dead

@Simon:
You didn't solve "Path to Mahimah" why exactly? Was it too tedious/not fun or difficult? I don't think anyone found the level very difficult at all. I think the changes eliminated any tedium that were had with building (which it used to have).

new levels scrapped: Five Easy Pieces
There are some obvious backroutes with the new skills. I really don't feel like bothering with this level at all; as I've said it's already been pleagued in the past. If youre curious;

Spoiler

The intended solution is supposed to use the miner trick from "No Added Colors or Lemmings".

Other solutions were new but acceptable. Six Ways to success and t3tesla's levels have several interesting solutions. I might alter them but I'll think about it more. I have also not looked at Duality and Mass Lixicide yet. The extra builder there is to get over the blocker as geoo said.

Duality: that pointed area left of the upper hatch must be this way; it forces you to use at least two skills there (digger and miner) to hold back the crowd.


Cold Irons Bound: fixed basher backroute and geoo's alternate solution. Note that there may be secondary solution to this level which relies on super extreme precision (may not be possible) This is not the intended solution. There's no way to remove this if it works that I know of.

Spoiler

make a walker bash through the icicle while the building keeps going]. The SI may make this impossible.

And I hate to do this but I have one more new level to add!
It's the Whispering Wind, another from Mobilems, you'll notice it's a repeat of Five for Fighting.

at least one person really liked this level:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylzQwaNRkgk&t=808s

[Proxima]

Edited "Forest of Fears" to get the one-way device working without having to use those thin platforms. This is a nice Quirky level, and I think we could use it to replace Path of Mahiman.

[Simon]

Forest of Fears looks backroute-fixed in Proxima's version, well done. I've tried to make the one-way gadget even clearer:

-- Simon