Level Design: What Makes A Level Challenging?

[Nepster]

To me this is a bit like playing chess vs. playing Magic: The Gathering . [...]

I can see what you are getting at, but this conflicts somewhat with the philosophy we chose for NeoLemmix or Lix. IchoTolot mentioned this already in previous posts, but I would like to give a bit more details:
In German we have the phrase "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" (literally translated as "egg-laying, wooly, milk-giving pig") for something that tries to do everything, but usually fails horribly at all of them. The upshot is to determine the key features of a product and focus on them, because there will be other products that focus on other aspects and usually will be better at them.
Chess was created around the premise that everyone has the full knowledge about the game at any time, while Magic focuses on the question "How can I adapt my strategy given more and more knowledge about the opponent's strategy?". Both of them are successful, because they never lost the focus on their core feature.
Now, I certainly don't want to say that the original Lemmings game is bad in any way. But it is primilarly a puzzle game, so when we added features, the community decided to strenghten this aspect of the game. At first I myself was sceptical regarding a few of the changes, but now I very glad about them.
- Clear physics mode removes indeed the explorative aspect of the game. But Lemmings was never a game where you could explore a lot. More or less hidden exits and traps are the only things that could be "found" by lemmings during playing a level, which is pretty restrictive. So if someone wants to explore maps, I would encourage them to play other games that focus on this aspect instead of Lemmings.
- Instant bombers and framestepping remove the executional aspect of the game almost completely, as you noticed with "We all fall down". Clearly this was a big part of the original game, and the original game doesn't vanish just because NeoLemmix exists, so anyone can still play it if they want this challenge. With all the Lemmix levels (which faithfully copies the original physics) it became appearant that there cannot be created a lot of new content that adds something new to what L1 and ONML already did in this regard. On the other hand, bomber timing and similar became annoying in levels that mainly focused on the puzzling aspect. To satisy the needs of the pure puzzlers, instant bombers, ... were added. Of course this changed the genre of the game somewhat, as Proxima already remarked.
- Finally it turned out that even with all these changes to the original game and the narrow focus on the puzzling aspect, a lot of very diverse levels can be created.

I wrote all of this to explain why we made these changes to NeoLemmix and what NeoLemmix players expect in levels, not to convince you that NeoLemmix is inherently better than the original game. So summarizing the above: Levels that focus on the execution or have hidden exits or traps might be very nice Lemmings or Lemmix levels, but still be bad NeoLemmix or Lix levels, simply because the genre changed a bit and players expect something different now.
PS: There have been quite a few of totally unfair levels for Lemmix in the past. So a lot of us old guys who grew up with Lemmix or even CustLemm got burned by such levels and hate them now.

A thing about "snowed in"-exits, i.e. where you can see the exit, but the trigger is buried: [...]

Partially covered exits are no problem at all, even in NeoLemmix. As you said, they have their uses. Just make sure you don't just cover the bare minimum required, but at least a third of the exit to make it glaringly obvious that the exit is covered. Otherwise I can almost certainly predict that you'll get a friendly reminder that your level could be improved in this way

Also, at the beginning of that level, the lemmings fall onto a splat pad right from the trap door. There's an anti-splat pad hidden in the ground right underneath. The player doesn't know this. But since you don't have any floaters or gliders, only bombers at the start, and the lemmings fall from the trap door right to their doom, there's not much else you can try to do before you find out the pad is there.

Yes, in some exceptional cases information has to be hidden, because you couldn't manage to design the level otherwise. This is totally fine! IchoTolot argued against making the deliberate choice to hide information as a feature of the level. And personally I have to agree, that this isn't much fun for me, though you'll find quite a few others here in the forum who would agree with your point of view (especially regarding finding hidden exits).

I respect the ambition to be able to solve each level on the first trial by thinking it through. Personally however, I believe the satisfaction about solving it is often even higher when it takes several trials.

I totally agree with you there, and I expect so does everyone else here. But there is a difference between:
- Having to replay, because I missed something, miscalculated the number of skills needed, forgot a lemming somewhere, ... That's perfectly fine.
- Having to go back 5 or 10 seconds to adapt to a hidden trap, while having enough skills to do so without having planned in advance for this trap, is kind of annoying, but not too bad.
- Having to completely change a solution that I had found in my mind and would almost certainly have worked if not for a hidden trap... Now that makes me furious

I've looked at the Black Hole level you mentioned (I guess "Mining Company" was the one you meant), and I get that this is the way to get the maximum out of especially the classic 8 skills, using those in new and creative ways.

Congratulations on solving that level! I was about to caution you about the extreme difficulty of these levels, but it seems that isn't necessary. And yes, I focused on the classic skills partially because the new skills were only added later and partially because I wanted to see how much new ideas I could find just with them.
Btw. if you have replays of your solutions of the NepsterLems levels, I would be very happy to see them. And any other form of feedback, especially ways to improve my levels and pointers to annoying/misleading parts are more than welcome, too.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for your detailed response, Nepster!

Yes, in some exceptional cases information has to be hidden, because you couldn't manage to design the level otherwise. This is totally fine!

I have attached the level I was talking about for clarification, as well as a replay. I get NeoLemmix doesn't care about the execution by now, but I really like the synergy regarding the timing of bashers and stoners on this one .

Concerning timed bombers: Would it be possible to make this optional in the editor for each individual level (instant bombers vs. timed ones)? I have some old levels from WinLems, like one where you had to bomb climbers to get through some poles. The original version was quite challenging, I'd say mid- to late Tricky, whereas now with instant bombers, it's reduced to mid- to late Fun, i'd say .

Whenever I want to work with timed bombers now, I have to use radiation, which is even more difficult to execute, imho. To use another German idiom, that's kinda "driving out the devil with Beelzebub": With radiation, the countdown always starts at the same location - the place where the "radiation station" is located . The skill with timed bombers is knowing when to assign them; with radiation, you can only use walkers etc. to steer them into the right direction.

Levels that focus on the execution or have hidden exits or traps might be very nice Lemmings or Lemmix levels, but still be bad NeoLemmix or Lix levels, simply because the genre changed a bit and players expect something different now.

Well, I built the levels using the Neo Lemmix editor - if these levels are compatible with other platforms, I will happily release my pack as a "Lemmix pack" instead . Although features like framestepping and true physics mode are certainly also useful for some of my levels, and if it's just to check whether a trap has been successfully disarmed or not.

Perhaps it's safest to say it is a "Lemmix pack running on the Neo Lemmix engine"?

Congratulations on solving that level!

Ehm, no, too early for praising me , I just watched namida's gameplay of that level and how even he couldn't figure it out. Surprisingly, although I had downloaded all the packs I could find from the NeoLemmix website, I don't have yours yet. I guess it's somewhere here in the forum? My brother and I stopped the video right at the beginning however and calculated different possible attempts. So now I will try to put them into practice .

That's another nice feature of Neo Lemmix - being able to play the levels in whatever sequence you want, so getting stuck on a particular level doesn't end the entire game .

PS: I saw IchoTolot has started covering your pack on YouTube now, so I have his solutions for checking mine ; for some reason, he uploaded the very last level first (I guess because it had come up in our discussion here? ), and now he seems to do it chronologically.

[Proxima]

Concerning timed bombers: Would it be possible to make this optional in the editor for each individual level (instant bombers vs. timed ones)?

NeoLemmix originally had an option (though it was per-pack, not per-level) and it was removed after a forum discussion: link. It's safe to say that the ship has sailed on that one.

[IchoTolot]

PS: I saw IchoTolot has started covering your pack on YouTube now, so I have his solutions for checking mine ; for some reason, he uploaded the very last level first (I guess because it had come up in our discussion here? ), and now he seems to do it chronologically.

I had the last level uploaded a while ago when I first proudly beat it. I waited with the rest of the pack, because I wanted every one of my solutions to be intended/acceptable first (even if it took a lot of fixes from Nepster ), as I think very highly of this pack. Now as I finished uploading some other ones, I finally started to upload my solutions. It has nothing to do with this topic

I highly advice you to try and beat the pack yourself before spoiling it. Yes, I know everyone is spitting out warnings that it's too hard and stuff, but here's a thing I find a bit problematic today: People giving up too fast on hard stuff.

I know time is luxury, but back when I got into Lemmings I played a pack, got stuck to death on a level and after hours/days/weeks/even months I beat the level and moved on. Over the time I learned more and more things and the solving process became more and more natural to me. You can't get significally better if you don't let yourself getting stumped on levels and keep on trying until you solve them!
People tend to simply say: "This is too hard for me!"  today and give up.....guess what: This isn't helping you! Have perserverance, keep on going, think harder and different, never give up! Otherwise this won't get any better.

[Strato Incendus]

@Proxima: Thanks for the explanation! So could I download an older version of the Flexi toolkit if I wanted to incorporate timed bombers? Because radiation as the only way of doing this is imho much more frustrating than having the option of timed bombers in the first place. The whole level becomes a "slave" to the position of the radiation station whenever I use one, I feel .

I highly advice you to try and beat the pack yourself before spoiling it.

Don't worry, the last level has so much stuff going on that I could hardly memorise it even if I wanted to ^^, and that's all I've watched so far. There don't seem to be any other gameplays of Nepster Lems so far anyway, except for namida's, who got stuck at Mining Company, afaik.

[Nepster]

@Proxima: Thanks for the explanation! So could I download an older version of the Flexi toolkit if I wanted to incorporate timed bombers? Because radiation as the only way of doing this is imho much more frustrating than having the option of timed bombers in the first place. The whole level becomes a "slave" to the position of the radiation station whenever I use one, I feel .

First of all, this is something determined by the NeoLemmix player, not the editor or the Flexi toolkit. So even if you had an old version of the Flexi toolkit, the game would still play with instant bombers. Nevermind that the nxp format has changed a bit in the meantime, so you would have compatibility issues, too.

I have some old levels from WinLems, like one where you had to bomb climbers to get through some poles. The original version was quite challenging, I'd say mid- to late Tricky, whereas now with instant bombers, it's reduced to mid- to late Fun, i'd say .

I would guess, that it will be well-received even with instant bombers.
If you want this with timed bombers, then you could play "A TOWERING PROBLEM" (ONML, Wicked 8). So either your level is a nice Fun level showing the player this trick (if this is the main idea for this level), or the player can try lots of things without worrying about the execution and therefore focus on finding the correct path (if this idea is combined with other ideas).

I have attached the level I was talking about for clarification, as well as a replay. I get NeoLemmix doesn't care about the execution by now, but I really like the synergy regarding the timing of bashers and stoners on this one .

Great level! Yes, there is some precision in there, but not more than necessary. And for such cases we have framestepping and all the other new features that make life easier.
And here you see the power of instant bombers. I guess you would never have created such a level with timed bombers, because the execution would simply be horrible.

Well, I built the levels using the Neo Lemmix editor - if these levels are compatible with other platforms, I will happily release my pack as a "Lemmix pack" instead . Although features like framestepping and true physics mode are certainly also useful for some of my levels, and if it's just to check whether a trap has been successfully disarmed or not.

No, the old Lemmix player can no longer play levels made by the NeoLemmix editor, only the other way around.
There is a separate (though very similar) Lemmix editor together with a Lemmix player, for those who want timed bomber and faithful L1 physics (including all the glitches like blocking away trap trigger areas or bashing through steel). But then you cannot use the new skills or the new types of objects.

[Strato Incendus]

Great level! Yes, there is some precision in there, but not more than necessary. And for such cases we have framestepping and all the other new features that make life easier.
And here you see the power of instant bombers. I guess you would never have created such a level with timed bombers, because the execution would simply be horrible.

Thanks a lot! Indeed, I value the existence of instant bombers just as much as everyone else here. It's just a pity to have the two things mutually exclusive.

Therefore, for the sake of "balance" of my argument, attached is a level that was essentially "ruined" - or at least forced into becoming quite different than it had been supposed to be - by the absence of bombers. As the name says, this level is all about cloning for doubling skills, and I would have loved to clone bombers so they walk into opposite directions with the clocks ticking above their heads. Since you mentioned that the cloner and the other new skills are not part of Lemmix, I couldn't create such a level with the Lemmix editor either.

It seems like there are several combinations available currently:
- Lemmix with timed bombers and standard skills only
- Neo Lemmix with new skills, mechanics, and objects, minus timed bombers
- Lix with instant bombers, plus jumpers and batters, which can't be had in the other games

But thinking of Lix and thereby the jumpers gave me an idea, one related to Lemmings 2: The Tribes: Wouldn't it be possible to create two seperate skills for this?

As you might remember, in Lemmings 2: The Tribes, there is a "Bomber" and an "Exploder". The Exploder replaces the classic bomber, i.e. there's a countdown and the lemming dies at the end. The Bomber in Lemmings 2 just places a bomb right where the lemming is standing, i.e. there is no countdown and the lemming does not die.

That took me a while to understand, I was reluctant to use the skill called "Bomber" first because it seemed self-evident to me that the lemming would die, and L2 pretty much gives you the ambition to always save everyone. I still find the idea of a non-lethal bomber odd and therefore don't think this should be implemented, but the main point here is the simultaneous presence of a timed and a non-timed bomber in the same game - just under different names.

Could we transfer that idea to Neo Lemmix? Bombers remain as they are, instant and named "Bombers", and we'd introduce a new skill called "Exploder" which has a countdown? We wouldn't even need a new animation for this, that one could remain the same as for the classic Bomber .

That way, we wouldn't have inconsistency between levels or packs: A player could just look at the skill panel, and whenever there are Bombers, he'll know they're instant, whilst if there are Exploders, it's time to practice aiming ^^.

[IchoTolot]

We fought long and hard for timed bombers to be a thing of the past and lived happily every after. I even do not like the radiation/slowfreeze object as it carried a part of this relic over --- they are not even used very often because of that reason.

We could transfer the idea, but I won't support this and don't expect much support from others for this. It results in 2 skills doing the same just differ in a frustraiting timer and L2 is a chaotic example what happens if you've got too many skills with many doing the same/similar things.

There was a comment by Colorful Arty back in the days as he argued about the timed bomber removal as well: "Why make them untimed? There isn't any way to precisely place the other skills as well!" The answer was: Good idea, there should be a way to see how skills work out before they are assigned ----> The birth of the skill blueprints! Away with the execution part!

For the not realizable level ideas: Levels shall emerge from the engine and physics you have. Some things just are not possible and cloning timed bombers to have 2xtimes the frustraition is let's say not a good idea......

Adding new skills is a thing....a very rare thing that has to be thought over in detail. Readding skills that were deliberatly thrown out, because people were sick of them even is a step up from that.

Sorry, but I will gladly stand above the timed bombers grave with a big spade, just to hit them on their head when they try to emerge from their grave again.

For timed bombers ---> Lemmix is there for you.

[Strato Incendus]

"Why make them untimed? There isn't any way to precisely place the other skills as well!" The answer was: Good idea, there should be a way to see how skills work out before they are assigned ----> The birth of the skill blueprints! Away with the execution part!

Which is why my suggestion would be to add a skill blueprint to the exploder, so the player could see where it is going to explode .

That way, timed exploders wouldn't make you rewind more often than any other skill. I just finished the Comet rank of Nepster Lems, and on that last level I had to rewind dozens of times just to get the diggers right, despite the skill blueprints. Even without, having to rewind for a missplaced exploder would be like having to rewind for missing the activation on a builder. It's not something that messes up your whole strategy for the entire level, like a hidden trap or exit, just a momentary shot that gets revoked right away without any repercussions.

Question: When the timed bombers were removed, did cloners already exist? Because cloners are indeed the main reason for my suggestion. You can't clone an instant bomber. And since Lemmix doesn't have cloners, the different engine won't solve this either.

That's why I disagree that this were a mere execution thing. One of the main challenges of puzzling is the scarcity of resources / skills, right? Cloners are an excellent, not so obvious workaround whenever a player is given few skills. They offer so many solutions that you don't see right away, but they only work to their full potential with moving lemmings.

I don't like radiation either, and that's mainly due to its fixed position. So let's imagine the level I attached in my preceding post: If I give you a single instant bomber, you can't solve it. With a single timed exploder, you can (keeping in mind that the length of the countdown is different to that of radiation, so the horizontal dimensions of the level obviously would have to be adjusted, but the principle is the same).

For the not realizable level ideas: Levels shall emerge from the engine and physics you have.

I understand that approach, especially considering all the effort necessary to implement new features into the game. The strange thing to me is that your team has actually already put in that effort, at an earlier point in time, to make all these options possible first - and then decided to throw them out the window again.

I get that you want to streamline Neo Lemmix into a puzzling game, but as we already saw in the hidden exit-debate, there are at least two camps concerning that matter. When Neo Lemmix is the main engine that gets supported - with the additional skills and objects - while regular Lemmix isn't, there are lots of valid ideas from the "other camp" getting lost that would have been possible with an earlier edition of the editor.

After all, it's not like the presence of a mere option, especially if it has existed at some point in time, endangers the quality of the packs created by people subscribed to a "puzzles only" philosophy, does it? They will continue creating strictly fair puzzles, and other people will toy around with some whacky execution stuff. Where's the harm in tolerating both as long as we know what we're getting into with each pack?

It results in 2 skills doing the same just differ in a frustraiting timer and L2 is a chaotic example what happens if you've got too many skills with many doing the same/similar things.

Glad you mention this, because concerning L2, I was thinking the same . A stomper is really just another digger, a kayaker is a temporary swimmer, a scooper is a slightly more steep miner, an attractor is a different form of blocker... lot's of variations, yet there's little that's actually new.

I have been asking myself this question for the Neo Lemmix skills, too, however. Do we really need blockers, stoners, and stackers? Stackers often cause the death of a lemming, too, because at least one easily slips by. The same could be asked for gliders and floaters.

I do however believe that each of these Neo Lemmix skills adds something unique and valuable - stackers can create walls to climb, stoners can block climbers like a blocker while at the same time serving as surrogate builders to close gaps or break high falls. Gliders have the interaction with the updraft, and the fencer, in contrast to L2 where it was just a basher with a light "updraft", is now a legitimate "upward miner". The skills are similar, but not the same, and therefore I see a cloneable exploder in the same vein as the other ones .

[IchoTolot]

Even with blueprints --- the skills would be too similar for the new one to have a reason to exist.

Just to have a timer and the possibility to clone the timer is by far not enough to justify a new skill and we must repel the L2 skill overload disaster. Adding skills carelessly is the path to ruin. I would simply throw the level idea away and make something better. Just because a few level ideas are impossible a new skill isn't automatically justified.

I understand that approach, especially considering all the effort necessary to implement new features into the game. The strange thing to me is that your team has actually already put in that effort, at an earlier point in time, to make all these options possible first - and then decided to throw them out the window again.

I get that you want to streamline Neo Lemmix into a puzzling game, but as we already saw in the hidden exit-debate, there are at least two camps concerning that matter. When Neo Lemmix is the main engine that gets supported - with the additional skills and objects - while regular Lemmix isn't, there are lots of valid ideas from the "other camp" getting lost that would have been possible with an earlier edition of the editor.

After all, it's not like the presence of a mere option, especially if it has existed at some point in time, endangers the quality of the packs created by people subscribed to a "puzzles only" philosophy, does it? They will continue creating strictly fair puzzles, and other people will toy around with some whacky execution stuff. Where's the harm in tolerating both as long as we know what we're getting into with each pack?

Namida put in effort to add things, saw that most of them were complete garbage and throw them out again. This was one of the best decisions ever made and we learned from that not to throw in everything that could support a few new ideas. We deliberatly decided to throw out these old ideas with a great majority of people supporting it. I don't count the timer idea as valid anymore.

The presence of an option is by far the most dangerous and false thing you can do, 100% more dangerous than adding in a new skill. The physics of the game depending on an per pack option is a disaster. The game has 1 configuration for all packs and the player can expect the same physics for all levels. The harm of tolerating both is limitless and it's against the rules of game design. This would also make way to maybe more options which even amplify the chaos.


The golden rule: 1 game, 1 physics set, no options!


Blockers, stackers and stoners:

Blockers:

- instant
- turning interaction with other skills (miners, builders, bashers)
- turning interaction with fallers
- can/must be freed

Stackers:

- need time
- great potential on using the slipping over lemmings to create interesting effects
- climable wall
- diggable wall
- can close and block small gaps

Stoners:

- instant
- can be assigned mid air
- lose you a lemming
- diggable wall
- great potential in fall height reduction
- can close small gaps


In fact in our IRC chat another idea came up over this discussion: Cull radiation and slowfreeze! (And I am normally the conservative voice here on the side of keeping old things and maintain backwards compability rather than introducing big changes.)

This would reduce complexity, which could better be used for neutral lemmings.

[Proxima]

I understand that approach, especially considering all the effort necessary to implement new features into the game. The strange thing to me is that your team has actually already put in that effort, at an earlier point in time, to make all these options possible first - and then decided to throw them out the window again.

Firstly, there wasn't a "team" until recent versions, long after the debates over gimmicks, timed bombers etc. had been settled, when Nepster started helping out with NeoLemmix development. Up till then, it was namida's solo effort. Many of the large changes, such as the addition of gimmicks, new objects and new skills, were tied in with the development of namida's own packs, and the community didn't know about the new features, let alone have input on them, until the packs were released.

That changed gradually, as the community came to embrace NeoLemmix as one of the main engines for creating new content, namida stopped releasing packs and concentrated on improving the engine, and got into the habit of asking the community what they wanted to see in further updates.

As for why we threw out existing options... gimmicks made the code a complete mess, and the new features we really wanted would have cost a lot more work because they had to be compatible with gimmicks. So it was a huge saving of effort to throw them out. Timed bombers, of course, existed in Lemmings Plus I because the engine was directly based on that of original Lemmings, with only a few small tweaks. Even Lix originally had them, because it was imitating the original game. Then namida released Lemmings Plus II, with the novelty of untimed bombers. Simon (developer of Lix) jumped on this idea and strongly pushed for switching to untimed. For a while, NeoLemmix offered both, simply because untimed bombers were a novelty; but considering that all the active content creators were using untimed bombers, it was natural to abandon the timed bombers option.

I get that you want to streamline Neo Lemmix into a puzzling game, but as we already saw in the hidden exit-debate, there are at least two camps concerning that matter. When Neo Lemmix is the main engine that gets supported - with the additional skills and objects - while regular Lemmix isn't, there are lots of valid ideas from the "other camp" getting lost that would have been possible with an earlier edition of the editor.

The thing is, NeoLemmix has an active community producing new content for it. Perhaps original Lemmix does, somewhere. But no-one on this forum is making new Lemmix content. So why should anyone put in the effort to add new features to original Lemmix?

After all, it's not like the presence of a mere option, especially if it has existed at some point in time, endangers the quality of the packs created by people subscribed to a "puzzles only" philosophy, does it? They will continue creating strictly fair puzzles, and other people will toy around with some whacky execution stuff. Where's the harm in tolerating both as long as we know what we're getting into with each pack?

There's no harm in different games existing. There's a lot of harm in one game trying to be everything. NeoLemmix has framestepping tools to make execution as simple as possible; there's very little satisfaction in pulling off challenging execution when the engine gives you that much help.

[Nepster]

Let me add some more points to Proxima's post: Some of the objects (like Radiation and Slowfreeze) and some of the skills (like the Disarmer or the Stoner) are more of a reason why we are hesitant about adding new skills, not arguments for adding skills that have somewhat similar functions.
Why? As Proxima already said, namida added these features at some point, because they looked like cool additions. But while they added complexity to the game, they weren't flexible enough to allow lots of new interesting levels. We learned from this experience and now try to avoid making the same mistake again.

Question: When the timed bombers were removed, did cloners already exist? Because cloners are indeed the main reason for my suggestion. You can't clone an instant bomber.

If I remember correctly, timed bombers were removed shortly after cloners were added to the game. At that point no level existed that cloned a bomber.

Wouldn't it be possible to create two seperate skills for this? [...] a "Bomber" and an "Exploder".

For this you really have to convince us, that there are a lot of new puzzle ideas that will become possible with the Exploder. Currently your arguments are:
- Allows cloning of bombers: Yes, that would be one nice puzzle idea. But overall this alone is of very limited use, because it only applies to a very specific situation.
- Whacky execution levels: One can already play the original games or build such levels in Lemmix, if one wants them. Yes, Lemmix limits you in other ways, but until recently it has been more than enough for people to completely satisfy their desire for levels focusing on execution.

So overall you will have to come up with a lot more convincing arguments, before we consider implementing Exploders. There is no shortage of ideas for new features, with the best candidates being currently:
- Exits that restrict the number or types of lemmings who can enter.
- Some version of the L2 Shimmier.
- And possibly the jumper, though getting the physics right will be extremely difficult.

Which is why my suggestion would be to add a skill blueprint to the exploder, so the player could see where it is going to explode .

Excellent point! I just realized that the current version lacks blueprints for lemmings walking through Radiation or Slowfreeze objects!

I get that you want to streamline Neo Lemmix into a puzzling game, but as we already saw in the hidden exit-debate, there are at least two camps concerning that matter. When Neo Lemmix is the main engine that gets supported - with the additional skills and objects - while regular Lemmix isn't, there are lots of valid ideas from the "other camp" getting lost that would have been possible with an earlier edition of the editor.

This is certainly a very valid concern. But the main problem here is, that the current developers (namida and myself for NeoLemmix and Simon for Lix) are in one camp and think that focusing on the puzzle aspect is the way to go.
Both games are open source, so you are more than welcome to use their source code to create and support your own engine, where you can add the timing aspect and any new skill you like. We welcome any new lemmings clones here and will certainly try them out!

[Strato Incendus]

there's very little satisfaction in pulling off challenging execution when the engine gives you that much help.

I know it's tempting to use any help given, but we're not forced to do so, are we? Pit Droids - and, as far as I could tell, Lix as well - also have the option of giving you "tipps" on how to solve the level. This means, where framestepping, replay function and skill blueprints facilitate the execution, tipps facilitate the puzzling aspect. Yet, most of us probably would have the pride not to use the tipps unless absolutely necessary , wouldn't we?

The same could be applied to execution based levels. Yes, of course I could rush through We all fall down in Neo Lemmix by setting the release rate to 99 and playing the entire level with the pause button turned on. But instead, I enjoy the breath of fresh air of having a reaction- and timing based level, especially if the preceding one was a puzzly one that "tied a knot into my mind" ^^.

The presence of an option is by far the most dangerous and false thing you can do,

Well, dangerous to what, exactly? The philosophy? If you're the conservative voice, I guess that makes me the libertarian one , in this case advising for a "free market of ideas": I believe if the community generally agrees that puzzling levels are the best levels anyway, the packs that you, namida, Nepster & Co. create will still come out on top as the most popular packs. In contrast, packs that use a lot of "mean" stuff or just elements that are not favoured by the community will not become popular and therefore won't have a huge impact, neither positive nor negative. So I don't really see what you would have to fear.

If it's about the complexity of the code, which I believe someone mentioned - old code interfering with new one, so the old one was removed - that's a pragmatic reason I can understand easily. There's no need to put in 80% more effort for something that would probably get used 20% of the time or less. I wouldn't ask for any of this if it had to be created all anew; I only do so because it did exist at an earlier point in time.

But no-one on this forum is making new Lemmix content. So why should anyone put in the effort to add new features to original Lemmix?

Exactly. I enjoy the features of Neo Lemmix myself, after all, so I don't see the use in distributing this stuff across different platforms. Philosophically however, my pack will probably be "new Lemmix content" indeed . At least if I understood the philosophy of Lemmix correctly.

So overall you will have to come up with a lot more convincing arguments, before we consider implementing Exploders. There is no shortage of ideas for new features, with the best candidates being currently:
- Exits that restrict the number or types of lemmings who can enter.
- Some version of the L2 Shimmier.
- And possibly the jumper, though getting the physics right will be extremely difficult.

The jumper certainly would be much higher on my priority list than timed exploders , so we seem to have common ground there. If I understood it correctly, the issue with the jumper is that knockback is needed? I saw that Lix has knockback, and so has Lemmings 2.

So perhaps let me chime in on that: Have any of you ever played Pingus? It's a Linux clone, but, as the name implies, you command a horde of penguins rather than lemmings. It features exactly the same skills as regular lemmings, plus a jumper, and it has no knockback:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLXIT59il6o&spfreload=10

(Nevermind that the video is in German, it's just about demonstrating the skills.)

Limited number-exits would be another feature familiar to me from Pit Droids. Since I've described that game as about as puzzly as it gets, I predict the Neo Lemmix community is going to enjoy that!

I also like the Shimmier, I think it has been used way too little in L2. My main issue with that game is actually not the huge choice of skills itself, but rather the ridiculousness of some skills, or how they are almost purely execution-based (Super-Lemming, Jet Pack, Twister etc.). There are skills that can solve a level single-handedly if a player knows how to handle them, or be the reason for him getting stuck just because he can't handle a Jet Pack. These skills, in combination with knockback, turned Lemmings 2: The Tribes into Worms for me . Still, I wouldn't want them to be removed from that game; apparently, I just need to keep practicing using the jet pack ^^.

I am however always in favour of skills that "fill gaps", by doing things no other skill can, but might be needed frequently. Sometimes they fill gaps literally, like the Glue Pourer (which usually makes Fillers and Sand Pourers redundant). But also some way of upward digging. I noticed that the Laser Blaster has been suggested as well, with the concern being that it broke too many levels on Lemmings 2 - many Laser Blasters lead the rest of the crowd from the trap door right to the exit. But that's an issue that could easily be solved by stretching out levels or adding steel.

Something that never occured on any Lemmings game is a downward builder (unless we want to count the roper). Upward digging and downward building are pretty much the only "gaps" remaining; apart from that, lemmings can both create and destroy into any direction.

Excellent point! I just realized that the current version lacks blueprints for lemmings walking through Radiation or Slowfreeze objects!

I'd certainly prefer that over throwing them out entirely, as IchoTolot suggested . Because that would either create more inconsistency - older packs including radiation & slowfreeze, making newer players think "I want that, too, why is it gone?" - or all the old levels that contain radiation / slowfreeze would have to be revamped; which we can probably all agree on would be loads of unnecessary work .

Giving blueprints to radiation & slowfreeze would also be a good way to test the waters for walking bombers & stoners without having to (re-)create a skill such as the exploder. Let's just improve upon these already existing objects first, especially before we throw them out entirely. Perhaps people will like the blueprints for those objects, and if so, exploders could be reconsidered. If not... I guess most level creators would just stop using radiation & slowfreeze anyway in that case, since the prevalence already seems to be quite low at the moment .

Both games are open source, so you are more than welcome to use their source code to create and support your own engine, where you can add the timing aspect and any new skill you like.

Yeah, I thought about looking into that , especially after one of you said that "Zombies pressing buttons" thing would only take a few lines of code. However, I'm only somewhat familiar with Python so far, so unless NeoLemmix is based on that, this will certainly be more of a long-term thing .

[Proxima]

I know it's tempting to use any help given, but we're not forced to do so, are we? Pit Droids - and, as far as I could tell, Lix as well - also have the option of giving you "tipps" on how to solve the level. This means, where framestepping, replay function and skill blueprints facilitate the execution, tipps facilitate the puzzling aspect. Yet, most of us probably would have the pride not to use the tipps unless absolutely necessary , wouldn't we?

Lix doesn't have in-game hints at the moment, no. It's a feature that's been talked about, but never added; I think at the moment Simon is inclined against it, and certainly there are higher priorities right now.

In any case, this is wandering away from what I was trying to say about options, which is....

The presence of an option is by far the most dangerous and false thing you can do,

Well, dangerous to what, exactly?

The harm of having options for different physics within a single game is, firstly, that there's more for new players to learn, so the game is less inviting to its potential audience. There's the question of how to communicate this information to new players -- bearing in mind that if we don't make really sure of that, the player will sooner or later stumble on a level that seems impossible to them because they are expecting one set of physics when the game uses a different set. And finally, even when players learn that the option exists, there's an extra burden of having to remember which physics are in play at the moment, for every single level you play.

The jumper certainly would be much higher on my priority list than timed exploders , so we seem to have common ground there. If I understood it correctly, the issue with the jumper is that knockback is needed? I saw that Lix has knockback, and so has Lemmings 2.

Yes, the main problem with jumpers is that you have to have tumbler physics to deal with all the cases where the jump doesn't go as expected

I noticed that the Laser Blaster has been suggested as well, with the concern being that it broke too many levels on Lemmings 2 - many Laser Blasters lead the rest of the crowd from the trap door right to the exit. But that's an issue that could easily be solved by stretching out levels or adding steel.

That wasn't really the concern; it's more that every appearance of the laser blaster in L2 was the same old, same old "trap the crowd, one lem does all the work, laser blast to release". It's possible that the skill could be used imaginatively even though L2 doesn't (like the fencer); but at the moment it's not clear whether the skill brings enough to the game to be worth adding.

I'd certainly prefer that over throwing them out entirely, as IchoTolot suggested . Because that would either create more inconsistency - older packs including radiation & slowfreeze, making newer players think "I want that, too, why is it gone?" - or all the old levels that contain radiation / slowfreeze would have to be revamped; which we can probably all agree on would be loads of unnecessary work .

Those levels would only have to be revamped if we insist on all packs keeping the same number of levels. Perhaps some levels would simply be dropped from packs, as has happened with other removed features (ghosts in NL, trampolines in Lix). But yes, every time a feature is removed, some work has to be done in looking over old levels and deciding what to do with them. Generally, in the "culling" discussions we've had, the discussion centres on how much the feature is currently used, how much work culling would involve, and whether the benefit of a simpler, more learnable game is worth it. As you can see, in several cases we have decided to cull features in spite of adding to pack maintainers' workload; in other cases (e.g. zombies) it was decided that the feature should be kept. The "inconsistency" with older versions is simply never brought up, because only the newest version should be used for making new content.

[Strato Incendus]

The harm of having options for different physics within a single game is, firstly, that there's more for new players to learn, so the game is less inviting to its potential audience.

Okay, that's a new aspect I didn't consider so far. Most packs I looked at, either playing them myself or watching Let's Plays, seem to be clearly oriented towards an audience already familiar with (most) official Lemmings games, where often even the lower ranks are already much more difficult than a level of equivalent position in e.g. Fun or Tricky. The general impression I get from these packs is that you should have finished original Lemmings first (or at least played it a lot) before even attempting one of the custom-made ones.

Even my pack, though I created tutorial levels for the new skills on the lowest rank, sort-of implies that you know the basic eight skills already.