[Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 Development Thread

[kieranmillar]

This pack has been released, please download from the release thread: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3655.0

Welcome to my Lemmings 2 : The Tribes level pack, Quest From Kieran 2!

The gimmick of this pack is that each of the tribes has its own set of 8 thematically-appropriate skills, and their levels use only those skills. I hope this means each tribe not only looks different, but plays differently too!

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. As the author it can be hard to spot when levels are broken, or completely misjudge the perceived difficulty of a level so the ordering might be totally out of whack. Unfortunately there's no replay feature, but if you think you've broken a level a description of how you solved it should be all I need.

Note that this is a "save everyone" pack. Every level has 100% save requirement for gold, except for the Classic Tribe, where the number you are allowed to lose and still get gold is stated in the title for each of their levels.

Apologies that some levels might need some pixel perfect skill use. I've tried to go to lengths to avoid it where possible, but with Lemmings 2's 8x16 grid, there's only so much you can do with terrain placement.

An enormous thank you for GuyPerfect's lgl2 and geoo's L2suite. Two amazing tools that made all of this possible.

Where is Quest From Kieran 1?
It's in development, I started fiddling around with the Neolemmix editor but then had ideas for Lemmings 2 and I'm not one to squander a creative splurge, so it's on the backburner until the ideas stop coming for Lemmings 2.

Meet the Tribes!

Beach
Like, we're totally gonna get you that talisman piece from the clams that stole it dude, but, like, there's this totally sick bunch of waves coming and I'm, like, totally there man! Surf's up dude!


Level 7: Lifeguard to the Rescue

Cavelems
10,000 years ago lemmingkind first roamed the world and survived using primitive tools. Today those lemmings are... clearly dead, I mean come on man, it was 10,000 years ago! However their memory lives on with a bunch of ironic hipsters who forgo modern technology because it's way too mainstream. But the joke's on them, now they have to deliver the talisman and have to travel by foot. Suckers!


Level 8: Dino Might

Circus
Roll Up! Roll Up! Come and see the greatest show on Lemming Island! Watch as the incredible SuperLem takes on the trapeze, without a safety net... or a trapeze! Come see our amazing laser display! And watch with amazement as sixty of our finest clowns try to deliver the talisman piece, with hilarious consequences!


Level 4: Teeny-Weeny Houdini

Classic
Nobody understands these guys. Everyone else has moved on and developed new tricks, as well as a better social understanding that deaths are often unnecessary, yet this tribe continues to do the same old stuff with the same old tricks over and over again. Legend has it that they've conquered thousands and thousands of landscapes and yet they keep on going, and somehow despite the massive losses there are just so many of them that they never go extinct. Lets hope there's still some of them left by the time they deliver their talisman piece.


Level 5: Overflow

Egyptian
Egyptian lore says that one of the gods buried the talisman piece alongside them, but there are so many gods, I guess we'll just have to check every tomb! The Egyptians love their pots, that's why this tribe bought along a whole bunch of them as their only construction skills! Historians are keen to point out that the magic carpet is actually Arabian, and not Egyptian, but the Arabian tribe don't care, they were made extinct a thousand years ago after one of them got drunk and triggered the armageddon.


Level 3: The Climber's Curse

Highland
After correctly predicting the prophecy of the Darkness befalling Lem Island, the Highland Tribe felt a bit upset that they weren't getting quite the level of thanks they'd hoped for. So Jimmy McLemming held an independence referendum for the Highland Tribe to become their own sovereign group. Unfortunately it quickly occurred to them that they were doomed without the other talisman pieces and so the referendum failed. Dejected and defeated, Jimmy McLemming spent the rest of his days drowning his sorrows with cheap bottles of scotch whiskey, so nothing different to usual really.


Level 7: Scaling Lem Nevis

Medieval
The Medieval Tribe prides itself as defender of the realm. Using the swordsmanship, bowmanship and chivalry passed down from generation to generation, Lemming island is safe from all intruders! So who better to deliver the King's talisman piece safely to the ark than 60 of his finest knights? (Actually don't tell them, but the orbital laser satellites launched years ago by the Space Tribe are significantly more effective at defending the realm).


Level 5: Ye Olde Cavern

Outdoor
At last, a tribe that takes place outdoors, if you ignore Beach, Highland, Medieval, Polar, Shadow and Space! And probably Sports too? Is that inside a stadium or in some nightmarish green hellscape dimension? Anyway, don't let the Outdoor Tribe fool you, they love to talk about how they have conquered the great outdoors and live off the land but in reality they've never ventured further than their back garden.


Level 7: Rocky's Horror Show

Polar
Why would anybody live in the bitterly cold, frigid Northern mountain range of Lemming Island? Easy, it's because there is enormous amounts of oil. And in the process of extracting it all, this tribe has become the experts of excavation and building tall structures. Now you'd think that this meant that when it came time to deliver their talisman piece, they'd be over in a flash using some motorised technology, but no, they keep trying to stick to tradition and deliver it by ski-courier, which would be fine, if the terrible skier physics meant they didn't constantly get in accidents and need to be rescued...


Level 5: Living Life on the Edge

Shadow
The masters of stealth, nobody knows where the Shadow Tribe are at any given moment. Which is quite surprising really, given the bright yellow balloons and loud explosions that follow them wherever they go. Maybe it's because everyone else is asleep when they travel during the dead of night. I guess you'll just have to hope that they deliver the talisman piece in time.


Level 4: Flee the Nest

Space
Bad news. In order to fund their space adventures the Space tribe sold off their talisman piece to the weasels years ago. It looks like there's only one solution: buy it back blast off on a risky adventure to the nearest wormhole and pass through it to an alternate dimension where they still own the talisman piece. What could possibly go wrong?


Level 3: Blast Chamber

Sports
The Sports tribe actually already have the talisman piece to hand, but they've offered it up as first prize to a tournament, so now they have to go win it! Sure, you could argue that the current need for the talisman is more important and could just swap the prize out for something else, but seriously, that is not how sports work! Disclaimer: I have no idea how sports work.


Level 5: Uphill Obstacle Course

How to Install
Back up your current Lemmings 2 LEVELS folder, then extract the contents of the zip into there, overwriting the existing files.

How to run Lemmings 2 in DOSBox

A Quick Lemmings 2 Refresher

• You have to manually save the game from the main menu. There's no autosave!
• You want to run l2-fix.exe, not l2.exe
• Useful keyboard shrotcuts:
  
  
  
  • ESC: Quick Restart
  • F1 - F8: Skills
  • P: Pause
  • Spacebar: Fan (Note, you have to unpause by pressing Space if you want the fan ready when unpausing)
  • Enter: Fast Forward

Bonus Downloads!
But wait... you'll find more attached to this post:

• QFK2_LostTribe: Because 120 levels just wasn't enough, here's another 10 levels for the Egyptian Tribe that do not follow the standard skill theming as the rest of the pack. This was my opportunity to use some level ideas that simply could not work in the rest of the pack due to the strict skill limits I imposed. There is one level in this pack that does not require you to save everyone, which you'll know because like the Classic Tribe it states how many you can lose in the level title. Also, it's the level that has exploders in it. As this overwrites the Egyptian Tribe, you may wish to create a duplicate of your Lemmings 2 game so you can run this and the main pack simultaneously without having to constantly mess around with the files.
• QFK2_Neoclassic: I have converted the Classic Tribe to Neolemmix in case you want to try the levels without suffering from Lemmings 2's bad UI. It uses the new formats, and to play you extract the folder inside the zip into the levels subfolder of Neolemmix.
• QFK2_Neoclassic_music: Extract this into your Neolemmix music folder and NeoClassic will play the Classic Tribe's music in each level. Without this, it will play random music tracks from those that come with Neolemmix.

[kieranmillar]

Oops.

Normally I always leave a level overnight and revisit it later for a fresh take on things. Helps me catch a lot of errors in my level design.

Sports 2 - Double Back on Yourself was the last level made for this release, and I completed it last night and did not give myself the usual time. Well today while thinking about it I had a brainwave, and it turns out the level is broken. And as I started to fix it, it turns out it was very broken. In all sorts of ways.

Now attached to the first post is a version 2 with this level (hopefully) fixed. No need to redownload if you already grabbed version 1, unless you really really want the fixed version.

[Simon]

Solved Beach 1-4 before going to bed now. Screenshots of solutions attached.

Love these designs, they feel superior to DMA's L2 levels. Concise, intelligent puzzles that freely take their necessary space, yet are smaller than the DMA levels. Execution problems are unavoidable in L2, but stem from the engine, not from the level design.

Spoiler

Kick in the Groyne is a beautiful puzzle. Looks fiddly, but turns out free of execution problems.

Diving Board took me very long even though every wrong idea dies immediately. Title was a clue eventually.

Hang Sixty looks backrouted, I manage to separate 1 worker.

-- Simon

[kieranmillar]

Thanks for the images, screenshots are an excellent idea! I'm glad you're enjoying it.

Spoiler

Diving board is much simpler to execute if the first stack is on the upward slope, maybe I'll change that platform to be not grass to simplify the execution. Also the extra diver let's you cancel the first stack so the lemming goes back into the crowd but I see that it's not necessary, I'll keep it in anyway. Looks like this level is much harder than I thought, might have to push it to later in the level order.

You've backrouted Hang Sixty for sure. I gave an extra builder to try and make the final gap less pixel perfect, I'll remove the builder and make the water two small gaps instead.

[Ron_Stard]

The intended solution for the first Egyptian level is brilliant! I am still figuring out how to solve the other first levels, but they look clever, too! Good job!

[kieranmillar]

I had a few updates I wanted to push, but was holding off as I'd started the Space tribe before the first release and was close to finishing it off. Given that nobody has reported finishing what's currently available yet, I felt there was no harm in releasing a single tribe and letting people play it sooner. Download the new version and check out the new tribe blurb in the opening post!

v03 changelog:

• New Tribe: Space tribe!
• Fixed minor backroute in Sports 3 Cliffside Hangout
• Beach 3 Diving Board - Starting platform not grass.
• Beach 4 Hang Sixty - Water at end of level is now 2 small pools instead of one big one. Builders reduced from 3 to 2.

[exit]

I've finally had time to take a look at the levels, and I managed to complete the Beach tribe.

So far these levels are great!

Detailed level feedback:

Spoiler

Introducing: Beach: A nice introduction to the skills used in the Beach tribe.

A Kick in the Groyne:  Good puzzle. My solution saved a sand pourer.

Diving Board: This one was pretty easy to figure out, but it has a great solution. I managed to save a diver on this one.

Hang Sixty: This one has a good solution, and it took me awhile to think of using the terrain at the right.

Cross Shore Winds: The solution was quite obvious, but the controlling of the surfer and hang glider at the same time was somewhat tricky.

Turn the Tide: I'm pretty sure that my solution is similar to the intended one, but it saves 2 builders. Good level.

Lifeguard to the Rescue: Also a good level. I think that my solution is essentially the same as the intended one, but it saves a sand pourer and a scooper.

Gnarly 180 Flip: Yet another good level! Pretty sure I got the intended solution here, as I used all of the skills.

Take the Plunge: Great level! The solution fell into place pretty quickly, but it's very nice! My solution saved a surfer/diver (I could've saved the diver instead of the surfer by letting the stacker continue until he walked off the edge, the had him surf to the exit).

Toasted Clam Sand-wiches: This one took me by far the longest. My solution seems to be a backroute because of the extreme precision required, though, and the fact that it didn't use the surfer.

Overall, all of the levels are really good. I'll take a look at the next tribe when I have time.
Solutions are attached.

[kieranmillar]

Thank you so so much for the detailed screenshots of your solutions. You've found a whole bunch of backroutes, which is great, because now I get to fix them. You did a whole bunch of stuff there that never even crossed my mind, so well done.

Spoiler

4 - Hang Sixty This is fine, but just wanted to comment how surprised I am that you stacked over the clam and used the sand pourer elsewhere. Very precise but it works. Not something worth fixing and the rest of the solution is fine as is. It seems this level might be a bit too hard though compared to what comes later, so I might push it to the level 6 slot.

6 - Turn the Tide Another that's not exactly what I did, but close enough. The official solution involves bumping your head on the parasol to turn the builder around, hence why there are more builders.

7 - Lifeguard to the Rescue A major backroute, looks like I need to swap the spade with a stack of beer cans.

8 - Gnarly 180 Flip Another enormous backroute. It's clever, but misses the main trick so I'm afraid it has to go, sorry! I did want to say that I'm impressed with your solution though. Looks like I need to totally trap in the top group by stacking beer cans.

9 - Take the Plunge Again, you've completely bypassed the main trick by getting a worker lemming out of the top group thanks to the spade. It looks like stacked beer cans are the solution to all of life's problems!

10 - Toasted Clam Sand-wiches Yeah, crawling glitches are definitely never going to be intended in my levels. Unfortunately I'm not really sure what I can do to stop that particular crawl, but I think I can knock your backroute on its head by adding a 4th clam to the row of clams.

Again, thank you so much for playing and breaking my levels. Expect an update soon with some fixes.

[kieranmillar]

New update in the opening post. I call this the Beer Update™!

v04 changelog:

• Shuffled position of Beach 4 Hang Sixty to level 6. Level 5 Cross Shore Winds and level 6 Turn the Tide both moved one slot earlier as a result.
• Beach 7 Lifeguard to the Rescue - Fixed major backroute with beer.
• Beach 8 Gnarly 180 Flip - Fixed major backroute with beer.
• Beach 9 Take the Plunge - Fixed major backroute with beer.
• Beach 10 Toasted Clam Sand-wiches - Fixed major backroute with beer clams .
• Space 9 Space Station Skylem - Fixed multiple major backroutes. No beer this time!

[mobius]

New update in the opening post. I call this the Beer Update™!

v04 changelog:

• Shuffled position of Beach 4 Hang Sixty to level 6. Level 5 Cross Shore Winds and level 6 Turn the Tide both moved one slot earlier as a result.
• Beach 7 Lifeguard to the Rescue - Fixed major backroute with beer.
• Beach 8 Gnarly 180 Flip - Fixed major backroute with beer.
• Beach 9 Take the Plunge - Fixed major backroute with beer.
• Beach 10 Toasted Clam Sand-wiches - Fixed major backroute with beer clams .
• Space 9 Space Station Skylem - Fixed multiple major backroutes. No beer this time!

is this in reference to a day a few days ago that was national beer day or something like that? I feel like this is a reference I know but forgot.

[kieranmillar]

is this in reference to a day a few days ago that was national beer day or something like that? I feel like this is a reference I know but forgot.

No, it's a reference to the fact that fixing the backroutes involved swapping out some terrain objects with the flat-edged beer can terrain object.

[Nepster]

I played through the Beach tribe in V0.4 and saved 58/60. Lots of great levels , even though fanning together with the general design problems of L2 makes for a very memorable experience .

Some comments regarding the levels

1) One of the conceptually harder levels, especially if one wants to save all lemmings. Great puzzle!
2) Very precision-heavy while the actual level idea is pretty obvious.
3) Great level idea.
4) I lost one lemming here, because fanning both the glider and the surfer isn't something I am gonna do. Even now fanning the surfer while scrolling over the level was a problem for me. Which leads me to the question: Why do we need such a looooong water basin?
5) Very clevel level and much better to showcase the trick, that one already used in Beach 2. I have two small suggestions for improvements: Make the lemming crowd easier to release. I needed all remaining 3 builders to get one facing right. And when building three stairs from the bottom, the fall from the upper platform is still deadly. This however is not quite clear from the beginning, because it looks very much like it is only a stunning fall. Apart from these two issues:
6) Very nice level again! Note that the worker-lemming glided over the clam to build the two bridges, while the first lemming of the group poured the sand.
7) I doubt that my work on the left-most hatch is actually intended: First lemming uses a flame-thrower, second lemming fills the gap with a sand-pourer. The crowd is then released by a miner. The stair on the right is build with a lemming from the middle hatch, moved there with a glider. Overall another very nice level.
8) That level was much fun!
9) The worker lemming on the first image is the last lemming appearing in the lower hatch. That's another great level, but I have two requests: Place the starting position at the very top. At first, I missed the upper hatch completely and then wondered why I only saved 30 lemmings. And the lower ledge at the middle platform gives problems to start gliders, because they frequently hit another grass pixel after flying one or two pixels. So any glider has to be started at the very edge.
10) Here I lost my second lemming. I am not a fan of this level, likely due to this being a backroute. The worker lemming on the first screenshot is actually the very last lemming appearing.

[kieranmillar]

Another huge thanks for the detailed feedback! Very helpful. Will have to think a bit harder about how to fix some of these issues.

Spoiler

2 - Heh, right idea, but you made it way more execution heavy than it needed to be. Ultimately no way to prevent you from making it this execution heavy.

4 - I knew some people would hate this level idea, I thought I'd take advantage of having two fan skills in the same skillset, but I understand it's 100% pure execution and some people will hate that. This is definitely the weakest level in the whole pack so far, I think what I'll do is work on the other tribes but if I come up with a good idea for Beach during that time, I'll swap out this level for a new one. I think the level is a unique idea, but that doesn't make it an idea worth keeping around.

5 - Unfortunately I consider this a backroute given that it's largely the same trick as level 2, I might fix it by pulling in that platform a bit so you've got no room to sand pour on it. The fact that the fall at the bottom is still deadly after three builders is a fortunate coincidence, as that's definitely not intended, but can easily make the fall even bigger if it helps.

6 - That works, but the first stack is supposed to be on the far island and not where you put it, but happy to leave it as it is as I see no way to fix it. Using the sand on the first lemming in the crowd is intended, so congratulations on getting that right. It seems like I could probably fix some of these backroutes by brining back the third builder and a large pool of water that this time requires all 3 builds to really enforce you get things done in the right place, but I'm not sure I'm all that fussed about doing it. Some of the solutions here are small variations on the right idea and I'm happy to let them succeed.

7 - That's definitely a backroute, but one that's gonna be much harder to fix. Having said that, I think I have an idea.

8 - Another very significant backroute, and it will be super hard to figure out what to do about it.

9 - Ohhoho, sneaky sneaky! Well done on that backroute, fortunately it's an easy fix. Not much I can do about the hang glider being hard to execute other than to say that I can't fix it because the landscape pretty much has to be that way, and I'm not fussed because when the backroute is fixed it shouldn't be a problem, if you get what I mean... I didn't start the screen up at the top because the top trapdoor opens at stun height, so the sound of the lemmings getting stunned was meant to be a clue that they were up there in case no-one scrolled up that high, and it was more annoying on restart to have to scroll down every time.

10 - Well it seems its not possible to pull off this backroute and still get a gold, so.... it's not a backroute? I don't think there's anything to fix here, if it's not possible to get gold with that route then I don't consider it valid. Sorry!

Next update will take a bit longer, will have to think hard about some fixes. Thanks again for the screenshots and detailed feedback.

[exit]

I'm sad to say that I found some more backroutes, but I think I found an intended solution!

Spoiler

Lifeguard to the Rescue: Majorly backrouted.

Gnarly 180 Flip: Pretty simple alteration to my original solution.

Take the Plunge: I managed to save a sand pourer this time.

Toasted Clam Sand-wiches: I think I finally found the intended solution! If so, I have to say, WOW! This is a devious solution. Your use of red herrings in this level is great, and no, you don't use crawling glitches, but you do use other ones!

[kieranmillar]

exit, can you provide a description of those solutions? It looks like you might have meant to attach screenshots, but would be nice to know what you did as I'll be updating many of those levels in the next update and would be nice to kill multiple backroutes at once (or you may have found intended solutions and would be nice to confirm).