[Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 Development Thread

[geoo]

A few more.

Spoiler

Medieval 10: I think I was just stuck on it because I assumed you didn't want us to build from the bottom of the level (like Simon and I did in our old backroute). So once I reconsidered and actually looked at the terrain (the right side of the lower platform this time) I immediately saw the solution, especially considering that Sports 4 uses a very similar trick.
Medieval 8: I'm pretty sure this is not intended.

Pillar Thriller: Save-all solution. So you can save various skills (builder+miner+digger) in exchange for killing one more lemming.
Classic ? (Lost 4): Found a solution saving a terrain remover and having some quite tight timing. I'm not quite happy about the quality-of-life lowering of the platform distance, it certainly makes things more convenient, but also makes players look for 3-builder setups (which I'm pretty sure is in fact possible). Maybe it's better to use some half-height terrain pieces to make the gap 4.5 blocks rather than 4 (there's some horizontal pillar piece you could add on top of the bottom and top platform, might look a bit ugly though).

[kieranmillar]

Thanks for the feedback all. I've decided I'm no longer going to respond to each individual point of feedback, but I promise you I do read and consider all of it.

Version 16 has been released. NeoClassic not updated yet as I will be making further changes to Classic in a near update.

v16 changelog:

• Cavelem 5 Flappy Lem - Replaced by a new level with the same name.
• Circus 2 Deepest Blue - Steel to fix backroute.
• Circus 3 Simply Red - Minor tweak for minor fix.
• Circus 4 Teeny Weeny Houdini - Some small tweaks.
• Circus 5 The Fall Guys - Now less friendly to the player to fix backroutes :p
• Circus 7 A Chip Off the Old Block - Backroute fix, extra Club Basher added.
• Circus 8 Wooly Jumper - Major changes.
• Circus 9 The Kryptonite Factor - Backroute fix.
• Circus 10 What a Blast! - Fixed backroute with extra terrain.
• Classic 7 Walk the Planks - Various changes. Basher added.
• Classic 8 A Tight Squeeze - To fix backroute, removed digger, added climber and exploder, level is now Lose 4. Extra minute on the clock for reasons of pure friendliness. NOTE: It is possible with exceptional timing to only lose 3 lemmings, but I'm OK with this remaining unrequired as I'm not that much of a bastard.
• Egypt 10 Keynes' Marginal Utility - Added steel to fix backroute

Minor TODO list:
Classic 6 Pillar Thriller
Classic 9 Spiral Staircase
Egypt 9 A Sticky Situation
Medieval Tribe
Polar 3 Snow Drops
Polar 7 Snow Drifts
Polar 8 Forging ahead
Polar 10 Grotty Grotto

Major TODO list:
Medieval 7 Castle Invaders
Space 6 Hull Breach
Sports 5 Tour De Farce
Polar 9 Santa's Big Dig

[Nepster]

I played through the updated level again and most should be (close) to intended.

Comments

Cave 5: Interesting idea to delay the second lemming by letting him flap around while the other lemming works.
Circus 2: Nice use of laser blasters.
Circus 5: Excellent level!
Circus 7: UNSOLVED. Before I continue working on this level, I would like a confirmation that at the end one builder is insufficient to create enough terrain that the basher continues through the second pillar.
Circus 8: I suspect this level needs more steel...
Circus 9: Very good level.
Circus 10: Not much difference to the first version.
Classic 8: Here another lose-2 solution.

[Simon]

geoo and I consider livestreaming a Circus race tomorrow (Thursday) at 17:00 UTC (19:00 German summer time, an hour earlier than my usual stream time). But we'd like confirmation by Kieran before we schedule it for tomorrow.

Kieran, do you have time to watch? If not, what other time suits you? geoo suggests Monday 19th or Wednesday 21st.

-- Simon

[kieranmillar]

Nepster on Circus 7

As far as I am aware that will not work. Or if it does, its a backroute. Perhaps in a future update I should make the level wider and put much more space between the pillars to make it obvious that isn't right, but I'm a sucker for keeping things one screen wide or one screen tall

Ooh you posted about twitch while I was typing this up. Unfortunately I have guests around tomorrow for a board game night, so would not be able to watch that stream sorry. Monday 19th or Wednesday 21st both much better for me.

[Simon]

Awesome, thanks for the quick reply. Then it's Monday, June 19th, 18:00 UTC. Everybody is invited.

twitch.tv/simonnaar, twitch.tv/geoouw, or both together at multitwitch.tv/simonnaar/geoouw

Edit: Race is not 17 UTC, but 18 UTC. I'll start the stream around 17 UTC anyway and go over de-backrouted levels in other tribes.

-- Simon

[kieranmillar]

A very small update mainly for tomorrow's stream:

v17b changelog:

• Circus 7 A Chip Off the Old Block - Incorrect approach now more obviously incorrect. Level swapped places with Circus 9.
• Circus 8 Wooly Jumper - More Steel
• Circus 10 Having A Blast! - Fixed Nepster's solution with a hole.

[kieranmillar]

It's update time! New tribe, not totally sure how I feel about some of it. The skill selection is a bit wacky. Hopefully some levels aren't too frustrating.

v18 changelog:

• New Tribe: Highland Tribe!
• Cave 5 Flappy Lem - More steel to fix backroute.
• Circus 1 Introducing: Circus - Changes to fix backroute.
• Circus 2 Deepest Blue - Fix backroute.
• Circus 4 Teeny-Weeny Houdini - Minor changes to fix backroute.
• Circus 8 Wooly Jumper - More steel to fix backroute.
• Egypt 10 Keynes' Marginal Utility - Making Nepster's soultion official by removing sand pourer as I now believe you can backroute the level with it. No other changes.

Minor TODO list:
Circus 3
Classic 6
Classic 8
Classic 9
Egypt 9
Medieval Tribe - lots of levels
Polar 3
Polar 7
Polar 8
Polar 10

Major TODO list:
Medieval 7 Castle Invaders
Space 6 Hull Breach
Sports 5 Tour De Farce
Polar 9 Santa's Big Dig

[Nepster]

I played most of the Highlands, but here I really wish that L2 has framestepping, replay features or similar.

Highlands and Circus

Highland 1) Nice intro level. Not too hard, just stopping the hopper is annoying.
Highland 2) This needs major precision to time that the ball lands on the bridge, but not too far behind the builder.
Highland 3) Very easy.
Highland 4) Excellent level!
Highland 5) This is another level needing lots of precision. First of all one has to time the first ball so that it hits between the second-last and last lemming (assignment roughly at 2:54 on the clock). Then one has to place the mortar correctly. And then the big roadblock: Assigning the hopper, so that the falling climber grabs the lower edge of the blocks. This resets the fall distance, so that he survives the long fall.
Highland 6) Nice level idea, but unfortunately I have huge difficulties blowing the twister straight diagonally.
Highland 7) Excellent idea, stopping the second rock climber with the ball thrower. Unfortunately one has to turn the first two lemmings into climbers, which gives only a small space between them. Then one has to use the attractor as a ball-thrower, which makes it very hard on the timing to get the first rope done over the water. And once one has managed all of that, one has to blow the twister correctly.
Please consider giving one ball-thrower more, so that one has one extra to release the attractor. This would solve all the problems, except the last one.
Highland 8) Here is my solution idea: First use the twister to remove lots of terrain from the gray building, to reduce the height at which one can throw balls. Then find the correct position to throw the balls, so that they land on the deeper red block. Now climb to the left and twist to the gap in the steel wall. Hop over the red blocks and the balls in the middle. Then throw from the right edge one ball to the steel wall to reduce the fall distance. Finally release the crowd with the third twister.
Unfortunately the first two tasks require so much precision, that I will never ever do that. Sorry.

Circus 8) 100% certain, that this is just another backroute.
Circus 9) Amazing level!
Circus 10) Excellent level and a very nice way to save the climber!

[kieranmillar]

Thanks Nepster. If I don't comment on a level here, assume I'm saying either "that's intended." or "that obviously needs fixing".

Highland

2) So I knew this was possible but could never be bothered to try and pull it off. Unsure whether to leave it, or to do something else with the level.
3) This will need a slight tweak.
5) Mostly correct but I can make a tweak to fix your solution which relies on what I see as a physics bug.
7) Not sure if I want to make a tweak here. The timing element of rushing to save the crowd was intended as it relies on putting the attractor in the right place and using the right lemming for it for it to all work, but maybe it's better to remove it and I could just make this level easier. This was me trying to make things feel a bit different in what is a Tribe where the levels all feel a bit samey to me.
8) Yes that is the right idea, but fair enough, the whole cutting out an area to throw in part of this level is bad. I think the idea of landing 3 rocks to make a space to hop is a solid one, but really I need to replace the top half of the level with something else entirely. I had numerous ideas for the Twister but as you can see it controls like ass so some of them had to go, but I left this one in even though I perhaps shouldn't have. Will look into making big changes here.

[kieranmillar]

An update with Highland fixes, fixing some outstanding stuff, and continuing to procrastinate fixing Classic, Medieval and Polar before I start work on the next tribe.

v19 changelog:

• Circus 8 Wooly Jumper - Moved Steel to fix Nepster's backoute.
• Egypt 9 A Sticky Situation - Backroute fixes. Level is wider and extra glue pourer provided.
• Highland 2 Highland Fling - Major revamp and moved to level 6.
• Highland 3 Bridge Me Up Scotty - Made a tweak.
• Highland 5 Strong-Arm Tactics replaced with new level, On the Rebound, and moved to level 2.
• Highland 8 The Stone Cutters replaced with new level, School of Hard Rocks.
• Highland 10 Bullseye! - Removed uninteresting twister.
• Sports 5 Tour De Farce replaced with new level, Ceausescu's Folly, and moved to level 6.

Minor todo list

Circus 3
Classic 6
Classic 8
Classic 9
Various Medieval levels
Polar 3
Polar 7
Polar 8
Polar 10

Major todo list

Medieval 7 Castle Invaders
Space 6 Hull Breach
Polar 9 Santa's Big Dig

[Nepster]

Here some more screenshots of the updated levels.

Spoiler

Circus 8: Still basically the same backroute, just less fun to execute.
Egypt 9: Yet unsolved. I know a solution with 6 glue-pourers
Highland 2: Very easy level, but nice.
Highland 3: Nice idea.
Highland 6: Feels intended. The time limit prevents several backroutes.
Highland 8: Suprisingly the hoppers require more precision than the bal-throwers here. Feels intended.
Highland 9: Far too easy and straight-forward to be intended.
Highland 10: I still have problems with precision-twisting, here the right vertical wall to throw the balls through. Otherwise a very nice level, even though I don't need all the skills.
Sport 6: Almost certainly a backroute, as I need basher-staircases at the end.

[kieranmillar]

Thanks Nepster. I know I haven't said anything but I have looked at your feedback and taken it on board, I was just busy focussing on finishing up the latest tribe!

Version 20 has been released, which contains The Shadow Tribe! This is the only change in this release, so no need for a changelog.

[Nepster]

Shadow tribe

1) Nice, easy intro level.
2) On the one hand floating to the ground and then back to the starting pit is very nice. But it's pretty weird that you can only pop the ballon with the roper end on top of the pit wall, but not without this.
3) I only say: Call the bomb squad.
4) Probably not quite intended. It is possible to save the builder by fanning the ballon through the small gap to the exit platform.
5) Great level idea!
6) Nice level.
7) This is very likely a backroute, because I don't use the right half at all. At the beginning one has to stall the second lemming of the right hatch with a balloon (that almost instantly pops) to get everyone into the stomper pit.
8) Very nice level idea, but one has to place the stomper extremely precisely, so that all bulks of lemmings wander off to the right at first and only the single stomper walks to the left to pour. Otherwise the glue isn't fast enough and the first trap catches one lemming.
9) Should be a backroute, too.
10) Nice level, but not too hard. And I only need two fencers and none of the pourers.

[kieranmillar]

Thanks Nepster! I'll provide some comments about comments.

Shadow

1 - 3 Intended
4 - I think I need to raise the height of the fall a little bit here.
5 & 6 - Intended
7 - Obviously a massive backroute. I always try to minimise the amount of steel I place, but I think here I just need to slap down a whole load.
8 - Not intended and the fix will involve something I didn't really want to do, but I suppose it needs to be done.
9 - Fixing this one will be a bit tricky. Hmmm...
10 - I guess the level wasn't tall enough in places... The problem with relying on fall damage to prevent certain paths is that it's just so huge in L2