[Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 Development Thread

[ccexplore]

L2 has no framestepping, but I'm used to framestepping.

Well, technically there kind of is (and made easier with DOSBox), just that it's probably not intended and more to the point, you can't go backwards which is kind of the important part.  (Also you can't use that method during fanning, but maybe that's a blessing since I can't imagine anyone wanting to play a level that requires ultra-precise fanning.)

[grams88]

I'll need to give those levels a try, those look very nice and would bring back memories of playing the old lemmings tribes . I bet those will be a lot harder than the old tribes levels.

[mobius]

L2 has no framestepping, but I'm used to framestepping.

Well, technically there kind of is (and made easier with DOSBox), just that it's probably not intended and more to the point, you can't go backwards which is kind of the important part.  (Also you can't use that method during fanning, but maybe that's a blessing since I can't imagine anyone wanting to play a level that requires ultra-precise fanning.)

As someone new to fanning; it's ultra annoying even as however non-precise it currently is.

[kieranmillar]

Attached the first post you will find version 9, as well as version 2 of Neoclassic! This should be the last update before the next tribe, which might take a small while to come out. Two things of note here:
1) I have decided to get rid of bad levels, so some levels will no longer be updated until I have thought up a replacement for them, so no need to give feedback for those.
2) While it was cute for the Classic Tribe to always have at least one of each skill so the full skill panel was always present, to fix a backroute I had to get rid of a skill in one of the levels, so I've decided to just wipe pointless skills from each classic level. This does not mean all skills used in the solution have gone, just those that didn't even serve to be a red herring.

v09 changelog:

• Beach 4 Cross Shore Winds - Level removed. Replaced with new level, What a Scoop!
• Cave 1 Introducing: Cavelems - Moved decoration to fix backroute.
• Cave 3 Facing Extinction - Slightly lower exit platform to reduce precision.
• Cave 7 The Dactyl of Terror - Removed misleading decoration and water now goes to screen edge.
• Cave 8 Dino Might - Stomper added, builder removed, trapdoor moved, water area extended further to the right, release rate substantially increased.
• Cave 10 Reinventing the Wheel - Backroute fix by making much bigger gap in middle of level + release rate tweaks for easier crowd control.
• Classic 1 Needs No Intro - Removed unnecessary skills.
• Classic 2 Richard's Cliff - Removed unnecessary skills, steel to fix backroute.
• Classic 3 Hangman - Removed unnecessary skills, added builder + minor terrain tweak to make execution easier.
• Classic 4 Escort Mission - Removed unnecessary skills, steel to fix backroute, removed need for builder.
• Classic 5 Overflow - Removed unnecessary skills, moved trapdoor, minor tweaks to make easier execution and make digging tools use more obvious.
• Classic 6 Mount Molehill - Removed steel and water pit to remove backroute.
• Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - Removed unnecessary skills, added steel to fix backroute.
• Classic 9 Spiral Staircase - Removed unnecessary skills, lowered height of platforms by 1 grid space and made some other general adjustments to accomodate this, added more time to clock. It seems that worries about backroute as a result of lowering height of platforms is only doable in theory in L2, in practice the blocker fields are so huge it is basically impossible to pull off, but upped release rate to try and prevent backroute that would now be possible if you can pull it off. Due to higher lemming step height in Neolemmix, NeoClassic has had further small tweaks to platform height.
• Classic 10 The Water Tower - Removed unnecessary skills, increased height of bottom of steel next to trapdoor.
• Sports 4 Give it the Run Around - Level removed. Replaced with new level, Rise to the Challenge
• Sports 10 Pass the Baton - Less pole vaulter precision + backroute fix + new cute and quicker opening sequence.

Levels destined for the bin in a future update:

• Cave 5 Flappy Lem
• Classic 8 The Lowlands
• Egypt 4 Carpet Race
• Space 6 Hull Breach

[Simon]

Excellent update!

Solved all Classic and Cavelem that differ between v8 and v9. Videos: Mount Molehill (11 MB), All other Classic/Cavelem (280 MB)

Comments if video is tl;dw, most OK, some backroutes

Cave 1 Introducing: Cavelems - Backroute? Build before falling to the exit, use runner wallkick to turn during fall, fan this right-facing runner-parachuter towards where he can spear.
Cave 3 Facing Extinction - Nice change, didn't play because already solved on stream with intended route.
Cave 7 The Dactyl of Terror - Intended? 1st lem builds, 2nd lem parachutes. Let parachutable turn, then I build with left-facing parachutable to give him enough height to open the parachute.
Cave 8 Dino Might - Intended? I stomp with the last lem to spawn, keeping everybody elsel in the high pit.
Cave 10 Reinventing the Wheel - Heavy backroute? Left hatch: When first lem falls off the starting platform, make him runner. Runnable club-bashes towards the left. Runnable builds. Everybody from left hatch goes home. Assign parachuter-swimmer to any lem from the left hatch and have the parachutable-swimmable spear at the right side of the level. Build twice to get the parachutable home.

Classic 1 Needs No Intro - Same as before.
Classic 2 Richard's Cliff - Easier than before, because steel (below the exit) that reaches all the way towards the bottom felt like a hint for me. I solved this very quickly on the video. Intended? Climb, build off the top left, block. Send another climber, let the blocker turn the 2nd climbable, dig with the 2nd climbable. Build over exit, mine.
Classic 3 Hangman - Same as before, easier to turn first climbable, good.
Classic 4 Escort Mission - Backroute? While the climber wants to get ahead, I dig with the crowd, the digger timing is impeccable. Climber bashes through the triangular obstacle with the square block on top. At this point, the basher is overtaken by a non-climbable, while only 0 or 1 lems turn in the basher hole and die. Block with the overtaking lem at the very right. This route loses 1 or 2 lems in total, but the level is lose-2.
Classic 5 Overflow - I had the intended route on stream? Didn't get it the first few tries and didn't bother to re-solve. Crowd seems to approach the worker very fast near the end.
Classic 6 Mount Molehill - Backroute? Same solution as before on my stream. I assign blocker to cancel the long miner at the far right. Loses 1 exploder, 1 left-side waypaver, 1 blocker.
Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - Intended? See video, too complex to describe. See video for backroute attempts, but I didn't find any backroutes.
Classic 9 Spiral Staircase - You didn't have to lower the middle platform, you only had to lower the high platform. But good either way!
Classic 10 The Water Tower - Watched geoo, didn't re-solve. Didn't try backroute again, looks like backroute wouldn't work.

Not 100 % sure why you'd like to cut The Lowlands. My rage came largely from being tired and from bad assignments. Maybe you feel like the level is too obvious and long?

Hangman is the perfect onescreener, I like this level so much. The next-most favorites are Richard's Cliff, Water Tower, Facing Extinction, Stuck In, Descent of Lemming.

-- Simon

[kieranmillar]

Thanks Simon, videos are always helpful

Spoiler

Cave 1 Introducing : Cavelms- Yeah this is another backroute. I think I can fix it, part of that level I think was only necessary to block a backroute in a previous version and I think getting rid of it will work. I'll have to check.
Cave 7 The Dactyl of Terror - Intended
Cave 8 Dino Might - Intended
Cave 10 Reinventing the wheel. Yeah this is a backroute. Hmmmm. This level has proven very tough to fix up so far, will have to think about this one.

Classic 2 Richard's Cliff - Intended I went heavier on the steel because the level is not meant to be too hard and in your race you guys spent ages here and were saying things about how the long bash solution must be intended, so I wanted to bop that on the head. If you think it would be better without the steel going too far down, then that's easy enough to change. There are always tough decisions to be made about how much red herrings are OK in terms of letting people go really far down the path of something that just barely but doesn't quite work. Is it better to let people do that, or try to make it quicker to come to the conclusion that it is wrong?
Classic 4 Escort Mission - Aaarg, I spent so long trying to fix Nepster's original backroute that I didn't realise I just went and re-introduced it. I think it's time to resort to the last resort here, extreme simplification.
Classic 5 Overflow - The changes here were really nothing to do with backroute fixing and more to do with making the opening quicker so replaying is faster, and removing the digger skill I never needed but felt forced to used under the old "must have at least one of each skill" theme. This is a minor backroute and I think the intended solution is slightly more interesting, will have to look at if I really want to try and enforce it, but I'm not too fussed. Regardless, I should tweak the release rate to make crowd assignment simpler.
Classic 6 Mount Molehill - Pretty much intended, but I bash in the bomber hole instead of mine, then mine back to the crowd. This is easier to execute and is why there is a different looking block in that area, it's a guide for where to start mining, but your solution works and is basically the same.
Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - A smart backroute, but still a backroute. More steel is the order of the day, perhaps.

I want to cut The Lowlands not because it made anybody rage, but because it was fundamentally broken in a way I no longer wanted to try and solve, and the backroute fixes I'd already applied left me unhappy enough with the level that I think I can do the same concept in a better way.

[ccexplore]

There are always tough decisions to be made about how much red herrings are OK in terms of letting people go really far down the path of something that just barely but doesn't quite work. Is it better to let people do that, or try to make it quicker to come to the conclusion that it is wrong?

Yeah, definitely a tricky balance.  I do think it probably becomes a problem once the herring gets to a point where it is falsely convincing the player that they just need to tweak the execution details more to make the herring work.  This is particularly problematic as Lemmings 2 skills open up to much more tweaking than the classic skills, for example think the precise aim of a projectile skill or the precise fanning of a fanning skill, or the precise flinging provided by a nearby explosion.  It's one thing to mislead the player into a simpler almost-solution that once played out a few times with a few variations, the player can be reasonably confident that it won't work out and it's time to consider something more different.  It's another if it can easily rathole the player into sticking with the herring far longer than they should, thinking it's just a matter of precision/tweaking.

[Nepster]

Played through V9.

Beach

4) Miner-miner-cancelling is fortunately easier than in L1, expect for the horrible assignment rules of L2. That's why I needed the last miner and flame-thrower to turn one lemming.

Cave

8) Very nice level. I don't need one of the stompers.
10) Left half of my previous solution still works. For the right half, I needed to utilize a lemming from the left half.

Classic

1) Just moved the digger pit a bit...
2) Crawling the first
3) Very nice level, but the digger position is rather precise.
4) Pretty much the same solution as last time, but the timing problems got even worse due to the missing floater. I still lose only one lemming.
5) There is only one possible approach left, and it works.
7) I tried to solve the level in a usual way first, and succeeded. But then I noticed a much simpler solution: Crawling the second
8) Crawling the third
9) Ok, slight modification of the previous solution: Crowd gets blocked again on the bottom platform instead of the middle one.
10) Crawling the fourth

Sport

3) The additional shimmier mad a new backroute possible.
4) I am fairly sure this is not intended. The crowd is freed by a basher-staircase (stopped with a shimmier).
5) Very precise timing. The first lemming of the crowd even needs to be delayed with a bit of air-bashing, or the platformer will not finish his work early enough.
6) Same solution as last time. I noticed that turning at the right edge can be simplified compared to my previous solution.
10) Ok, this fixes my backroute for good . My first very cool trick didn't work, so I found another one...
PS: Unfortunately Simon's stream ruined "Nice Catch" for me.

[kieranmillar]

Thanks Nepster.

Beach

4) Eh. I'm not too bothered by this. If you want to deliberately make things fiddly for yourself then knock yourself out

Cave

10) Yeah this is roughly the same thing Simon did, so I've got some work to do here.

Classic

So, crawling routes using a blocker are so powerful that I think I'm simply going to not fix them. There is no way I can fix some of those crawling routes, particularly level 10, so I'm just not going to.
4) This one needs more work.
5) So the official solution is largely the same but slightly more interesting, I'm not sure if I want to try and enforce it.
7) So on the non-crawling route, it was mostly correct, I can make a minor tweak to fix it, but there will always be a Neolemmix miner-turning-on-steel backroute available so not sure if it is worth making that tweak.
9) Well this is only a minor difference to the intended solution. I'm not sure what I can do about this with a particular major rework that I think would ruin the simplicity of the level, so.... I dunno, it might stay as is.

Sports

3) OK I think this is an easy fix.
4) I am still not used to that particular basher trick, but I think this is easily fixable.
5) I'm a bit confused about what happened here. You used all of the shimmiers to make the leader of the crowd jump ahead? Thanks for finding that this is possible.
6) Maybe I've been thinking about this wrong the whole time. I think I need to rethink this bottom-right corner.
10) This is basically intended, nice work I thought the miner would always splat with this particular configuration of platforms, but given the level is already quite tough, I'm OK with this.

[kieranmillar]

It's time for another update! NeoClassic is also updated, as always the most recent files can be found in attached to the opening post.

v10 changelog:

• New Tribe: Medieval Tribe!
• Cavelems 1 Introducing: Cavelems - Removed some terrain to fix backroute.
• Cavelems 10 Reinventing the Wheel - Minor terrain tweaks to fix backroute.
• Classic 4 Escort Mission and Classic 8 The Lowlands swapped positions.
• New level: Classic 4 Humble Bundle replaces The Lowlands.
• Classic 5 Overflow - Major revisions, skill changes, level is back to being Lose 1.
• Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - More steel, one less builder, some other decorative tweaks. NOTE: I am aware of a backroute exclusive to NeoClassic due to gameplay mechanics differences.
• Classic 8 Escort Mission - Backroute fixed with lots of steel.
• Sports 6 The Home Stretch and Sports 9 Uphill Obstacle Course swapped positions.
• Sports 3 Cliffside Hangout - Extended gap and added second platformer to fix backroute.
• Sports 4 Rise to the Challenge - Minor steel addition to fix backroute.
• Sports 5 Tour De Farce - Terrain tweaks + 2 less shimmiers + release rate a smidgen higher.
• Sports 9 The Home Stretch - Changed bottom-right corner of level. Added shimmier skill.

Levels destined for the bin:

• Cave 5 Flappy Lem
• Egypt 4 Carpet Race
• Space 6 Hull Breach

[Simon]

geoo and I blind-raced Medieval on Sunday, March 21. The vods remain availabe for 14 days: Simon's vod geoo's vod

-- Simon

[Nepster]

Medieval Tribe

1) Actually one of the harder levels of this tribe, but a great solution!
2) The easiest level of the tribe.
3) Getting the shimmier over the water basin was the biggest problem, because a roller always hits the ceiling there. So one has to add an arrow first.
4) Fairly sure this is a backroute. Very precise miner placement.
5) Nice level. I would move the starting position to the left edge of the level. Otherwise one has to do this each time at the beginning.
6) Amazing solution! Fortunately I didn't need any of the rollers... As an extra a screenshot of some weird slider bug.
7) Great idea to use arrows to pave the way of the slider/shimmier across the ceiling.
8) The first arrow in my solution was unnecessary. The other levels were better, or this is a backroute.
9) After having two ideas that require terrible amount of precision, I got this solution with somewhat less. The main problem is getting the two arrows to the steel wall correct, so that the climber may reach the ceiling on the left.
10) I am fairly sure, you intended something more elaborate...

Updated levels

Cave 10) The main problem was getting the builder for the runner right, so that he swims in the correct direction.
Classic 5) Nice level. I only lose 1 lemming.
Classic 6) Fairly sure, this should also be possible with only 3 builders. I need the last one, because the final builder places only 11 bricks towards the exit, not the 12th one.
Classic 8) I sill lose only 1 lemming.
Classic 10) My first solution still works, but one has to free the blocker now with a miner from the crowd. This is possible, but unfortunately totally dependant on being very lucky.
Sport 4) Turning the climber at the right wall with a tumbling shimmier is possible, but needs some precision. I don't know whether this is intended.
Sport 5) This should be a lot closer to the intended solution, even though I no longer use the trampolin. Attaching the shimmier to a platformer's bridge under construction is not completely trivial, btw.
Sport 8) Ok, now I move all lemmings to the right exit. As I need no shimmer at all, this should still be a backroute.

[kieranmillar]

Thanks as always Nepster! Your thorough and speedy feedback has already helped this pack so immensely, I really appreciate all of your updates! I'll be looking to push another version out before Sunday's stream. If not today, then tomorrow.

Spoiler

Cave 10 Reinventing the Wheel - Exactly intended, good job
Classic 4 Humble Bundle - Hmmm... I spent so long thinking about a solution that also works for NeoClassic that I missed something a lot more straightforward. Given that this level is actually significantly more difficult and precise in NeoClassic, I think what I'll do is repurpose the level idea for QFK1 in a way that works a bit better for L1, and come up with yet another replacement level for this pack, something that's a bit more friendly to working in both L1 and L2.
Classic 5 Overflow - Now you've got the right sort of idea Not totally fussed that you might be able to spare a builder, maybe it opens a bit of a backroute in NeoClassic where the step height is larger, but whatever.
Classic 8 Escort Mission - This level is going to be the death of me haha, but... I've had a brilliant idea that I should have seen earlier. Expect a slightly more unexpected change to this in the next update.
Classic 10 The Water Tower - Oh man, this makes me quite sad, this is going to be very hard to deal with as it is hard to change anything here without messing up the intended solution, given the terrain restrictions in L2. BUT, I think I might be able to come up with something.... Will need to test it.
Medieval 1 Introducing: Medieval - Exactly intended Not sure if it's just hard in general or if this is hard because it requires you to first learn a number of important interactions. I do honestly try to keep these starter levels somewhat simple but in some cases it can be hard to have exactly one of each skill work and have each skill show off what it does while still being easy.
Medieval 2 Joust Duet - Exactly intended
Medieval 3 Ramp It Up - This backroute should be an easy fix.
Medieval 4 Roll With It - I know exactly how to fix this, although it does make the level slightly less interesting.
Medieval 5 Laying the Foundations - Bah! I knew you could turn around on that decorative little lump near the dragon but tried to make it work and couldn't. I must say your solution is pretty smart, but unfortunately it will have to go, and I know exactly how to do that.
Medieval 6 Going Full Circle - OK that first arrow is very clever Your solution is largely intended and I can't see a way to fix your solution anyway so it stays If you are wondering about the rollers, the intended solution is for the first arrow to be on the wall coming down from the ceiling where the second slider shimmies on the ceiling, slides onto the arrow, and rolls off. This leaves you one shimmier less, so the third slider, when landing on the last arrow, rolls off that instead of jumping.
Medieval 7 The Castle Cellar - Yeah this is pretty much correct I am fine with the way you did this, only some small details different from what I do.
Medieval 8 Castle Invaders - Aaaarg! Looks like that little wooden overhang I added onto the first castle really did open up a backroute after all! Athough I think I also see another backroute issue with what you've done so will have to make some further changes anyway.
Medieval 9 Crate Expectations - A backroute I'm afraid, but one I know how to fix.
Medieval 10 Medi-Upheaval - OK this is annoying because I tried to pull off exactly this but couldn't get it to work, not considering that you could leave a very slightly unclimbable ledge and then mine it later. So I was really close with preventing this but it wasn't to be!
Sports 4 Rise to the Challenge - Bah! But I think it's fixable.
Sports 5 Tour De Farce - Yes this is closer to the right solution, but there's definitely an unfortunate issue here with trying to attach to the underside of a platformer in progress, which is definitely not intended. I think I can fix it.
Sports 9 The Home Stretch - Good grief the backroutes will never stop for this level hahaha. I feel a bit dumb for this particular one though.

[kieranmillar]

Version 11 is attached to the opening post. I have not updated NeoClassic yet, as it's a pain to update and seems all feedback on the Classic Tribe so far has been from playing it in L2 anyway (but that's good as I'm primarily interested in what it's like to play in L2).


v11 changelog:

• Classic 4 Humble Bundle replaced with A Tight Squeeze, and moved to position 8, all levels inbetween moved down.
• Classic 7 (was 8) Escort Mission - Level is now Lose 3, digger replaced with exploder, added steel in numerous places.
• Classic 10 The Water Tower - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Egypt 4 Carpet Race replaced with new level, A Sticky Situation, and moved to position 9, all levels inbetween moved down.
• Medieval 3 Ramp It Up replaced with new level, Ye Olde Cavern, and swapped position with Medieval 4 Roll With It.
• Medieval 3 (was 4) Roll With It - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Medieval 5 Laying the Foundations - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Medieval 8 Castle Invaders - Removed Builder, added Archer and Shimmier. Removed wooden overhang.
• Medieval 9 Crate Expectations - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Medieval 10 Medi-Upheaval - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Sports 4 Rise to the Challenge - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Sports 5 Tour De Farce - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Sports 9 The Home Stretch - Various tweaks to fix backroutes.

Levels destined for the bin:

• Cave 5 Flappy Lem
• Space 6 Hull Breach

[geoo]

Played through the new stuff from v11 (and v9 and v10 as I hadn't checked out all of that yet), except for Classic.

Spoiler

Egypt 6, Inner Sanctum: I'm still wondering what's intended here. I know my solution that abuses the miner to get through the very right block at the top (which feels quite cheap and still works), and there's Simon's with the extended basher.
Egypt 9, A Sticky Situation: Reminds me a bit of tiny tomb, just with a trickier setup. I somehow have the feeling that sealing the gap at the bottom and later mining it open is not intended.
Egypt 10, Crypt of Infinite Echoes: There's a solution with the miner and one without. Which/What are you trying to enforce here?

Beach 4, What a Scoop: First try, took me less than a minute to solve. That one was really easy.

Cave 1, Introducing: Cavelems; Cave 3, Facing Extinction; Cave 4, Get Stuck In, Cave 8, Dino Might:  I think I might have found these one during the race already, but I don't remember exactly.
Cave 7, The Dactyl of Terror: This is new and looks intended.
Cave 10, Reinventing the Wheel: This looks close to intended and uses all the skills. Pretty neat, my only issue is having the runner place a builder so he doesn't bump into the wall and turns around, that felt a bit hackish.

Classic 8, A Tight Squeeze: This looks intended as well, maybe the pillar at the top could extend a bit further to the right to make the timing easier. Getting that right took me a few tries, even though there's some leeway already.

Sports 10, Pass the Baton: Looks like another backroute, mining into the block at the top to turn the lemming while still allowing it to pole vault.
Sports 9, The Home Stretch: Pretty sure this is intended, really nifty solution here.
Sports 5, Tour De Farce: This solution is pretty clean, but saves a few shimmiers.
Sports 4, Rise to the Challenge: Pretty sure this is a backroute. The miner here is pixel precise.

I think by now I know more or less the intended solutions to Space, Cave and Beach, and most of Egypt.
Lifeguard to the Rescue and especially Take the Plunge are really cool (I don't think I commented on them before).

I also found another glitch: When a swimmer gets out of the water pit, you can assign a builder such that it starts building one pixel above the ground, i.e. floating in mid-air.