[Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 Development Thread

[Nepster]

Finally the Lost Tribe has found it's way home, too, even though they took some shortcuts.

Comments

1) Very precise use of the bazooka and the bomb at the beginning, so I don't expect that this is intended.
2) Excellent level! I just made it much more difficult than necessary for myself, due to making the laser blaster lemming an attractor at the beginning, not after shimming to the laser blaster location.
3) Very easy, so probably not quite intended.
4) Amazing level!
5) Another excellent level! At first I tried (from three different locations!) to put an arrow at the right edge of the second gap, so that I can use both glue-pourers at the top right corner of the level. Unfortunately the arrow has to be placed pixel-precise to create a 1-pixel ledge at exactly the correct height, which seem to be almost impossible to manage.
In my final solution, putting the arrow into the ceiling is non-trivial, because one has to stand almost at the topmost pixel fo the vase.
6) Due to the skills I have left over, I suspect a backroute.
7) Amazing level!
8) I would make any bet that this is a backroute.
9) Another backroute, I guess.
10) While I hope that at least some parts are already intended, I probably simplified the solution a bit.

[kieranmillar]

Thanks Nepster. I haven't been active lately but hope to get back into fixing up my pack based on your comments. I've still not really thought about what I'll be doing to the Highland Tribe. I'll respond more directly to your comments eventually.

[kieranmillar]

I've started fixing up levels and have started with the Lost Tribe, so I'll respond to those comments first:

Lost Tribe

1 Two Sides to Every Story - I did not realise you could climb up that with only one bazooka, yes this is definitely not intended, but hopefully an easy fix.
2 Reverse Guillotine - Yes it looks like you did make this slightly harder on yourself but no matter, obviously you've got the main idea behind the level solved correctly and that's all that matters
3 Tall Tales - Doh! Sad that I missed this backroute Must have been a change I made during development at some point as I swear I'd considered it at some point.
4 The Tourist - Yes, this is the correct idea I do some slightly different crowd control stuff but in hindsight it seems so obvious to just do the roping first, and this is good enough to me so no need for any changes.
5 Beating a Dead horse - This is the right idea But I want to avoid you having to do super precise arrow shots, so I'll make a tweak.
6 Jumping The Shark - Nice backroute, but it has to go! Time to Steel up!
7 Potheads - This is exactly intended, well done! (If you're wondering about the filler, it's in case you scoop slightly too far down at the start, as I had the skill slot spare).
8 Secret Passage - Bah! Oh well, easy fix!
9 The Temple of Boom - Again, nice backroute, but I'm afraid it has to go!
10 The Great Hall of Egypt - Well you understand some bits, but... yeah this is nowhere near right. I'll need to see what I can do about this. Unfortunately this level ended up ballooning enormously in complexity as I found and tried to fix backroutes, and maybe it's a bit too complicated now that this sort of thing will creep in. I'll need to think carefully about what to do here. Maybe a substantial revamp is needed?

[kieranmillar]

I've fixed up all of the outstanding issues in the Shadow and Outdoor tribes, as well as the Lost Tribe!

v24 changelog:

• Outdoor 5 Mud Slinger - Minor Terrain tweaks + Major slowdown in release rate
• Outdoor 6 Rocky's Horror Show - Even more Steel + minor terrain tweaks
• Outdoor 7 Life's Ups and Downs - Longer pool of water to fix backroute.
• Outdoor 8 Take a Hike - Steel up most of those posts.
• Outdoor 10 Triple Trouble - Added Jumper, Removed Platformer and Bomber, minor terrain tweaks.
• Shadow 5 Into the Hidden City - Terrain tweaks to fix alternate solution
• Shadow 9 Roadmenders - Raise height of starting landscape to prevent backroute.
• Shadow 10 Alley-Oop! - Removed Fencer, Added Stomper, added steel + terrain tweaks + super slow release rate for quality of life

Lost Tribe v03 changelog:

• Lost Tribe 1 Two Sides to Every Story - Bigger block at the start.
• Lost Tribe 3 Tall Tales - Chunks of land moved to the right to fix backroute.
• Lost Tribe 5 Beating a Dead Horse - Level extended to the left a bunch and starting area lowered slightly to prevent minor alternate solution.
• Lost Tribe 6 Jumping the Shark - Added steel near entrance and to right side of level and made tiny landscape tweak to fix backroute.
• Lost Tribe 8 Secret Passage - Fix backroute with minor landscape tweak near the entrance.
• Lost Tribe 9 The Temple of Boom - Fix backroute by adding landscape and steel at the top of the pillar near the Entrance.
• Lost Tribe 10 The Great Hall of Egypt - Major revisions. Massive simplification, different intended solution, and major skill changes.

TODO List

Major Highland Revamp
Circus 8 Wooly Jumper
Classic 3 Round the Bend
Classic 7 Pillar Thriller
Classic 9 A Tight Squeeze
Medieval 4 Ye Olde Cavern
Medieval 7 Castle Invaders
Medieval 9 Medi-Upheaval
Medieval 10 Laying the Foundations
Polar 7 Forging Ahead
Polar 8 Lair of the Evil Snowman
Polar 9 Polar Opposites
Space 4 Space Elevator
Sport 6 Ceausescu's Folly

[kieranmillar]

More fixing. This time the Classic, Medieval and Sports tribe get all of their outstanding issues fixed. I have decided to hold off on updating NeoClassic for now as the new Neolemmix level format, when it is released, will no longer use manual steel areas, so there will be some updating needed.

v25 changelog:

• Classic 3 Round the Bend - Raised steel in middle of level to fixbackroute.
• Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - Removed land at very bottom of the screen to fix backroute.
• Classic 9 A Tight Squeeze - Steel below the exit to fix backroute.
• Medieval 4 Ye Olde Cavern - Added tiny crate that left me personally unable to pull off Nepster's backroute. Maybe it is still possible, but if so, I will leave it in.
• Medieval 7 Castle Invaders - Level replaced with entirely new level and moved to slot 5.
• Medieval 9 Medi-Upheaval - Removed roller, added 2 shimmiers, level is now wider + some other minor tweaks. Also, here be dragons.
• Medieval 10 Laying the Foundations - More skills, more time, more trapdoors, more terrain.
• Sport 6 Ceausescu's Folly - Widened starting area, raised left-most exit and removed steel above entrance to fix backroute.

TODO List

Major Highland Revamp
Circus 8 Wooly Jumper
Polar 7 Forging Ahead
Polar 8 Lair of the Evil Snowman
Polar 9 Polar Opposites
Space 4 Space Elevator

[kieranmillar]

Another version. This one is pretty substantial. This version includes a major Highland revamp, where the builder got swapped out for the slider, and a whole host of levels have been replaced. I also replaced two other levels that I thought were a bit lame. Due to the number of changes to the Highland tribe, and the fact that some levels are new despite having the same name, I'll list every level and state what's changed, or not.

v26 changelog:

• Highland Revamp
  
  • Highland 1 Introducing: Highland - New level
  • Highland 2 On the Rebound - No changes
  • Highland 3 A Drop of Scotch - New level
  • Highland 4 What Bagpiper's Deserve - Level is a bit taller, gaps a bit wider, to prevent roper related-backroutes.
  • Highland 5  Zigging While Zagging - No changes
  • Highland 6 Highland Fling - New level
  • Highland 7 Scaling Lem Nevis - Skill and layout changes to avoid big precision twist and make execution of rest of level easier.
  • Highland 8 Hopping Mad - New level
  • Highland 9 School of Hard Rocks - No changes (but used to be in slot 8)
  • Highland 10 Telegraph Pole - New level
• Medieval 5 Castle Invaders - I realised this level was very similar to another one, so I replaced it (again) with a new level, Invasion of Normandy, and put it at slot 3.
• Outdoor 7 Life's Ups and Downs - I felt this level was bad, so I replaced with a new level, Jumping Beans, and moved it to slot 6.
• Space 4 Space Elevator - Layout tweaks and an extra Jet Pack and Bazooka. I am aware of a solution that saves a bazooka, but am not bothered by it.

 TODO List

Circus 8 Wooly Jumper
Polar 7 Forging Ahead
Polar 8 Lair of the Evil Snowman
Polar 9 Polar Opposites

[Simon]

Great to see this much support!

Outdoor race on Thursday, September 21st, 18:00 UTC at www.twitch.tv/simonnaar and www.twitch.tv/geoouw. geoo and I aren't looking at Highland or Bonus-Egyptian until then, allowing more races.

-- Simon

[Nepster]

Final chance to get some last-minute fixes done to the outdoor tribe before the race.

[kieranmillar]

Heh, thanks Nepster, always able to find dumb oversights by myself, and so quickly too! I should be able to get fixes out before Thursday.

Comments

5) Mud Slinger - Hah, that's smart, fortunately it's easily fixed by widening the level and extending that gap.
6) Jumping Beans - I'm not sure how this happened, your solution is pretty much the intended solution except it's all worked out despite not needing all those jumpers. It looks like I need to rethink this a little bit.
7) Rocky's Horror Show - Hooray, this is pretty much the intended solution! No changes needed here.
8) Take a Hike - Bah! I'm sure I tested that at some point, but I might need to do something other than extending this gap because I think the level is already at maximum size. I can slap a big ugly hunk of steel in the way, but it will make me sad.
10) Triple Trouble - Nice solution Getting up to the top with a platformer then a roper is intended so I'm glad you're now doing that. For the rest, I'm not so fussed, you do some funny-looking things with those ropers but it's all good to me. I think this level works better with a bit of flexibility allowed, so no changes needed here.

[kieranmillar]

Here's another update in advance of tomorrow's stream. A shame I could not get the entirety of my TODO list completed before this release, but this is the shortest it has ever been. Although to be fair, I am sure tomorrow shall bring a whole host of additional items to my list

v27 changelog:

• Highland 7 Scaling Lem Nevis - I totally forgot that geoo found a crawling route on stream. It's fixed now.
• Outdoor 5 Mud Slinger - Widened level to fix backroute.
• Outdoor 6 Jumping Beans - A few more jumpers, swapped bomber for second flame thrower, added some terrain.
• Outdoor 8 Take a Hike - Big ugly steel wall added to fix backroute.
• Polar 7 Forging Ahead - Raised exit slightly, readded backroute-fixing steel that for some reason I got rid of at some point.
• Polar 8 Lair of the Evil Snowman - This lair must be built on top of a volcano, because some snow at the bottom of the level has melted, and some has fallen from the ceiling in front of the exit! Miner added. There are two variant solutions here I'm aware of, one very similar at a certain point to what Nepster has done before, but this time using all skills, and either is sufficiently complex for me.
• Polar 9 Polar Opposites - This was on my TODO list, but I'm not sure why. Nepster's last solution is pretty much exactly intended. Maybe there was something found on the last stream, but the level has been updated since, so I'm not sure what else it could be. I seem to recall something to do with platformer stacking, so to play it safe I shrunk some gaps and removed 2 platformers. The level takes plenty long enough as it is without watching all those platformers, so it's a win-win.

TODO list

Circus 8 Wooly Jumper

[Simon]

I've won a race for once. Hohohoohohoho.

I'll be happy to re-race Highland, and to race the extra Egyptian tribe. geoo and I will probably schedule a time in 2 weeks, on shorter notice.

-- Simon

[geoo]

Yeah, sounds good to me, in 2-3 weeks.
This was a really good race, going back and forth all the time. And the levels were a lot of fun, just the crawling ruined some of them a bit.

btw, I found an easier crawling setup for one of the Outdoor levels you might want to fix as well, see attached. Just a roper and a platformer.

[kieranmillar]

Well here it is. At last. A version where my TODO list is completely empty! Which isn't to say that it will stay that way, of course! Now whatever will I do with all my free time?

v28 changelog:

• Circus 8 Wooly Jumper - This could not be fixed, so replaced it with a new level, Thinking Inside the Box, and moved to slot 7.
• Outdoor 4 Rocks and Hard Places - Level wider to fix direct backroute, more jumpers, higher release rate
• Outdoor 5 Mud Slinger - Terrain changes to fix stupid backroutes, planter swapped for another bomber, release rate tweaked.
• Outdoor 7 Rocky's Horror Show - Major changes to layout, skills and intended solution. Removed Roper and 2 Flame Throwers. Added Platformer, Kayaker, Scooper and a bunch of Jumpers.
• Outdoor 8 Take a Hike - More steel, more water and terrain tweaks. Removed a roper and a jumper.
• Outdoor 9 Life's Greater Porpoise - Flipped the level. Platform near entrance raised. Removed a Platformer.
• Outdoor 10 Triple Trouble - Water under the exit to fix crawling backroute.

[Ryemanni]

Amazing job Kieran! I have only watched Simon's and geoo's streams but now I'm starting to feel the urge to play these levels myself.

[Nepster]

Attached the solutions to the modified Highland levels.

Spoiler

1) Nice intro level.
3) This level is rather hectical as one has to do everything at once without being able to stall one hatch completely.
6) This was a major cause for rage, because one has to start the mortar almost exactly on the trigger area of the exit. If one places it later, then the hole is too high and one cannot start the twister there. But if one places it earlier, then the hole is too far down and the second athlete, who has to hop over the balls, will continue hopping... So one has to decide between assigning the second hopper pixel-precise, so that he lands on the trigger area of the exit, or one has to place the mortar one pixel left of the exit trigger and then start the first hopper frame-precise, so that the athlete won't exit too soon.
Otherwise a nice level idea.
8) This is quite precise, too. The thrower from the bottom has to assigned pretty early or the ball won't land on the platform, but on the Nessy. For this one has to use the mortar quite early to have a hole at the left end of the thin platform. But this in turn means that there is not much space left between the mortar hole and the edge on the left, so one has to avoid flinging the third attractor too far. This makes placing him rather precise.
10) This reminds my very much of a certain highland level in the original game: Creating an ark with the flung balls. This doesn't really feel intended, so I guess you have at least one level to backroute-fix again.

Space 4) One doesn't need any of the bazookas, if one places the jet-pack correctly beyond the trap and then assigns the magno-booters soon enough, before the lemming turns around again.