[NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]

[kaywhyn]

I felt like weighing in here, as I've been continuing to work on PimoLems, even as I needed to focus a bit more on work. I also took a break to finish Lemmings 2 so that RTW's let's play wouldn't get too ahead of me. I'm decently close to finishing PimoLems, just have slightly less than half of the One and Pickaxe ranks to get through, as well as the last half dozen or so levels of Hurricane, none of which will prove pushovers I'm certain

Well done, uber! You're definitely well on your way to finishing Pimolems. You're absolutely right about the remaining Hurricane levels. As I have already played the pack, in my experiences, the difficulty starts picking up a little bit before the halfway point of the second rating, but it really kicks up starting with the third rank and stays quite high up through the end of the Hurricane rank. As you might have seen, the Pickaxe and One ratings tend to be slightly easier than the levels in the main pack, but there's still some tough nuts in them, especially near the end. Note that I have only played the Lemmini version of the pack, but as all the levels are the same, my thoughts on the difficulty still holds. Just some are slightly easier or harder depending on which engine you're playing the pack in.

I will probably produce a complete review document of PimoLems, like I previously did with DoveLems, as I feel, like kaywhyn, that both these packs are important historically and aesthetically (not to mention in puzzle design of course), and I want to document my complete reaction. Also Icho you might be interested in my replays at that point, but it does seem like in PimoLems there's a lot less to fix.

Absolutely send your replays whenever you're ready. Not only are they very helpful for level pack authors, I think it's also fun to compare your own solution to others. For that, post them over at https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2327.0, since this is the Dovelems topic, not the Pimolems topic.

I definitely share Eric's subjective experience that PimoLems is a better quality, stronger pack than DoveLems, although they certainly both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Nothing wrong with saying this at all. It just happens to be one that I disagree with, because I just think that it doesn't make sense to compare two packs from two very different level designers and say that one is better quality than the other, as it's a case of comparing apples to oranges. What makes more sense is comparing two packs from the same author, eg, United being higher quality than Reunion makes sense since they're Ichos' packs. Another thing that makes sense to say is I enjoyed Pimolems slightly more for the better challenges it has to offer compared to Dovelems. Just my insight/thought.

On the other hand, DoveLems I would say has more of an aesthetic, artistic atmosphere about it, Pieuw certainly has his moments in PimoLems, but Dodochacalo takes this to a new place. I'm also unsure about the relative predominance of levels in PimoLems requiring glitches. I like glitches, but I feel somehow that they're not a part of "regular" puzzle solving. In any case those levels, which of course I missed playing the NeoLemmix version, seem to have been tastefully handled from what I've seen.

I'm indifferent about glitches, although I lean more towards I don't like glitch levels, since I'm one of those who believes that all skills should behave predictably and logically, not unpredictably and illogically. There were originally 6 glitch levels that can only work in Lemmini, which is what Pimolems was originally made for. All glitches got removed in NL, and therefore those levels won't work as they are and hence had to be modified/reworked in order to work in NL.

Overall PimoLems has provided me a lot more satisfaction in terms of gameplay, and I really do get the sense that Pieuw is a more careful crafter of pure challenges. If the aesthetic is not an overt focus apart from a few beautiful cosmetic touches, the level architecture often seems like not a pixel is out of place as regards to the functioning of the puzzle, like it's been meticulously refined. And this impression is further backed up when I see him very often having a dialogue in YouTube comments and here on the board with people who play his levels, whereas Dodochacalo seems like a somewhat aloof figure these days (was he ever active much here or elsewhere?).

I'm in complete agreement with the first sentence, as beating Pimolems levels definitely felt way more satisfying than beating levels in Dovelems. As for the last sentence, other members will have a better answer as to whether Dodochacalo was active on here. I only started posting to the forums earlier this year, although I've been a registered member since 2017. I think that time when I was just skimming and reading posts in secrecy, I didn't really see any posts from Dodochacolo, so that might had been long after he became inactive. Or maybe he wasn't ever active. I have no idea.

kaywhyn, you've also touched on something I have been wondering about, which is the exact relationship between the two packs; obviously both creators are French (I assume?) and many levels of DoveLems seem to be inspired by levels of PimoLems, or possibly vice versa. In some ways it seems almost like they have, or had (speaking of the landscape of this community in the Lemmini era) a common goal in terms of extending the field of possibilities of puzzle design, with DoveLems ending up feeling like a more "fun" introduction, and PimoLems being much more punishing, a compendium of unforgiving challenges.

Good observation. I honestly have no idea whether one was inspired for the other.

Btw, I'm also interested if there's ever been a proper ranking of difficulty of all the NeoLemmix packs out there, or at least the most famous ones. I haven't been able to find a handy list, just certain sporadic opinions. I know this is very subjective, but it's interesting to think about what makes a level hard in terms of specific attributes, for instance is it true as Eric implies that it's more difficult to make hard levels when only using the original L1 skills? maybe I should start a topic on this on another board to get a broader survey of opinions, or maybe someone else already has...

I think adding difficulty tags to NL packs was just very recent, as in within the last year or so. I wouldn't necessarily say that it's harder to make hard levels with just the classic 8 skills. Quite the contrary. For very good examples of this, look at Reunion, which you're currently playing IIRC, as well as Nepsterlems. Even though these packs only use the classic 8 skills, they're both quite difficult packs. However, I am of the belief that levels that only use the 8 classic skills are easier than those that have at least one NL skill. I think it's because pretty much everyone here is very familiar with the 8 classic skills and their mechanics, while the NL skills are not as familiar, though it's just a simple matter of familiarizing oneself with them via the NL Tutorial Pack. Then my original statement will become less true.

(PS: kaywhyn congrats on United, that's a massive achievement! )

Thanks a bunch, uber! Just so you know, I received Icho's United prize in the mail today

[uberwolfie]

Nice thoughts, always very good to hear!
I'm not sure I entirely agree with you in principle about comparing apples & oranges, certainly there are "objective" criteria which you can use to compare pretty much anything, especially Lemmings levels which all share a fundamental goal after all. It's just that everyone will value different criteria over others, thus subjective impressions will be formed. I do try to avoid unqualified sweeping statements like Eric's (not that I think sweeping statements are wrong, sometimes it's quicker to use them), but I can see personally where he's coming from.
Otherwise, completely agree with you, the packs definitely have different values themselves.
It's interesting about skills, in some way the constraint of the original skills seems to be a key ingredient in the puzzle aspect, adding extra ones has the danger of giving the lemmings too much "freedom" - this is something I was very aware of while playing Tribes, how it had such a different feel to its predecessor, maybe due in part to "overpowered" skills, but also a lack of focus (or even proper implementation) of the original ones despite their tried and tested usefulness. NL I would say seems to have done a very good job adding new skills that are actually useful but avoid this trap, and work well with the classic skills.
Anyway, that's potentially a discussion for another thread I guess
I got through the first rank of Reunion, and half of the second, some great levels although I must say I'm more excited to start on United which just seems like such a different scale. These will come more to the fore again I'm sure after PimoLems.
That's awesome about your prize - I hope things like that eventually end up in some kind of Lemmings museum though

[kaywhyn]

Regardless of whether or not you see it the same way as I do especially in regards to "apples to oranges" (which I admit is probably not the best way to express my thought on the matter but I think you see my point in attempting), they're simply opinions and when it comes to that you either agree, disagree, or somewhere in between or you're not sure. Still, it's always nice to hear thoughts from others, just like in the same way I think it's cool to see solutions from others, given that everyone pretty much approaches level solving differently and unless there's only one solution, people are very unlikely to come up with the exact same solution.

I got through the first rank of Reunion, and half of the second, some great levels although I must say I'm more excited to start on United which just seems like such a different scale. These will come more to the fore again I'm sure after PimoLems.

That's great! Still got a long way to go, but you're well on your way. United is definitely many times better than Reunion. Just beware that it is an extremely difficult pack. As you might had seen in the level pack topic itself, it took me exactly a year to beat the entire pack. And I wasn't even planning for the completion date to fall on the 1-year mark of when I started playing the pack. Nevertheless, I have the utmost confidence that you can beat it. Also remember that you can always ask Icho for a hint or anyone who has played/completed the pack for help anytime you get stuck. Though it wasn't very common and I'm one who prefers to avoid asking for help on solving levels, I had to ask Icho for help on a few levels.

That's awesome about your prize - I hope things like that eventually end up in some kind of Lemmings museum though

Now that would be something to see

[Shmoley]

So Devilish 30 hasn't been very nice to me.. I guess it's punishment for me breaking Devilish 27 so bad. But nothing seems to come together in this level no matter what I try.. 

[Proxima]

Devilish 30 is a beautiful level, easily one of the highlights of the pack. Keep going, you can solve it!

[Proxima]

Replays for the second half of Coward.

Regarding Coward 23 "Ask the Oracle":

Spoiler

I was stuck for a long time trying to do the long bash left-to-right, which is impossible because you have to build up from the step below to get high enough to start bashing -- but the step is 13 pixels below the minimum height you need to bash. I guess this isn't so bad because it's really clear that there is no way to make it succeed....

[IchoTolot]

V 3.3 is out!

Naming of the rank signs adjusted. For the update please delete the old version of the pack first.

[namida]

Went through Plain for SYCLW. You might want to take a look at the replay for Plain 25, Coward 7, Coward 25 and Coward 30 in particular.

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4614.msg87113#msg87113

[Shmoley]

I'm happy to announce that I've beaten Devilish 30! Proxima was right; it was a beautiful level it looks so confusing at first but once you get it just right it flows so beautifully! I've also beaten Maso 1 and 2

[kaywhyn]

I'm happy to announce that I've beaten Devilish 30! Proxima was right; it was a beautiful level it looks so confusing at first but once you get it just right it flows so beautifully! I've also beaten Maso 1 and 2

Hooray! Onto the final main rank, Maso. Then the Bonus rank. You can do this, Shmolem. I know you can. You come too far to not make it to the end

[Shmoley]

So I've made my way to Maso 9 (Live from the Pentagon) and Maso 8 just annoyed the heck out of me. It's probably the first time I've gotten genuinely frustrated at Lemmings. The execution is so precise I had to do it over and over and over until it finally just happened. Anyway. Maso 9. Interesting looking level but my current question on it is how to get the Lemmings down after you completed the path to the exit
Edit: Nevermind.. I just got it..
Edit 2: Sooooo.. Maso 10 looks extremely rough. Took one look at it and I'm just like well I'm screwed

[Swerdis]

I agree with that. I don't like Maso 8, too. The solution ist totally obvious, but the execution leaves no leeway at all. That's just frustrating. To be honest, Maso 10 looks more complicated than it really is. I partly backrouted this level, but this has probably been fixed by Icho. When I look at the rest of the levels, they are all quite feasible. The biggest challenges may provide Maso 18 (Take a Step Ahead!) and Maso 27 (The Spring). The final three levels are surprisingly easy. But then, there is at least one really hard level in the Bonus rank....

[IchoTolot]

The thing with Maso 8 is if you don't use the right technique for the stairs it's extremely precise. With the right technique it's not that hard to do.

I aggree though that it tend to get annoying. Maybe 1 turn would have been enough here.

[Pieuw]

It was nice to see Maso 8 in motion back then, but I can see how annoying it can be to make it work. Having only 1 turn wouldn't decrease the difficulty of the puzzle, it would ruin the name though. A > That Stands For >emmings?

[kaywhyn]

When only Maso 8 was mentioned, I kept wondering what level is this. Now that I took a quick look at it, yes, I 100% agree with both Shmolem and Swerdis that it is an extremely annoying level to pull off, especially when I first played through the pack on Lemmini many years ago. As I had mentioned a few times before, it's far worse on Lemmini due to no framestepping and skill shadows. Also, there are some really good levels that I ended up not liking as much as I should had only because of the execution difficulty that resulted in too many restarts, but this is more true with Pimolems than it was with Dovelems for me. Should be a much more enjoyable experience for me if and when I start playing Dovelems in NL. Just like both Shmolem and Swerdis said, it's obvious what needs to be done, just executing it in the middle area is frustrating. If anyone had mentioned the level title, like Pieuw did, I would had immediately remembered "Oh yes, that level! I remember I was very annoyed and frustrated when doing the solution."