[NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]

[kaywhyn]

I checked WillLem's Amiga version of They Just Keep on Coming/One Way or Another, and it suffers from the exact same problem of being able to dig through the moss on the steel. I guess it's confirmation that anytime there's destructible terrain on steel then you can still go through it.

Since you're close to finishing the pack as well, Shmolem, perhaps Icho can wait for Swerdis' and your replays before a pack update. In the meantime, don't worry about having to resolve Devilish 27, although you're still more than welcome to go back and see if you can find the intended solution if you want.

Keep up the great work!

[Swerdis]

Yeah, I'm through it. So I guess Icho can patch all the backroutes right now. Good pack. Maso was in large parts easier than Devilish. Hardest levels for me: "Pletorah's Temple" and "Make the Big 8", followed by "The Way to Go Up". "A Z That Stands For Zemmings" was also difficult, but for the execution, not for the idea.

[kaywhyn]

Yeah, I'm through it. So I guess Icho can patch all the backroutes right now. Good pack. Maso was in large parts easier than Devilish. Hardest levels for me: "Pletorah's Temple" and "Make the Big 8", followed by "The Way to Go Up". "A Z That Stands For Zemmings" was also difficult, but for the execution, not for the idea.

Congrats Swerdis! I can attest to all those levels you mentioned that you found difficult, as I remember them being difficult as well when I played through the pack years ago. The only level that you mentioned that I couldn't remember was Make the Big 8. I took a quick look at the level and I somewhat remember it being challenging. At the same time, I have only played Dovelems on Lemmini, and if I'm not mistaken, only Devilish 25, "The way to go up," is different in terms of level layout. Everything else should pretty much be the same or mostly the same in terms of layout. Other levels they had to be modified from their Lemmini versions in order to work in NL due to differences in mechanics in the engines, such as those two levels with terrain in the steel (actually, I'm wrong here, there's only one Dovelems level with the destructible steel in Lemmini, the other one I'm thinking of is a level from Pimolems. My age is definitely showing ) . They're much harder in Lemmini, because it's a blind "guess the path through the steel," i.e, some of the steel was fake so that they could be destroyed by the digging skills. Supposedly, according to the level pack author there are clues to help you figure the path to take, but what those are I don't know. I've solved both those levels in the Lemmini version, I just don't know the clues that help you know where to dig in the steel. In any case, all the fake steel in those two levels was replaced with terrain in the NL version, and hence those two are no longer blind "guess the path through the steel." Plus, if you don't even want to bother guessing which path to take, simply take a look at the NL version so that you know where to dig in the Lemmini version or just look up a replay.

Similarly, the final level, Maso 30, relied on a miner quirk that works only in Lemmini (this is also wrong, as it was just pointed out to me that the miner quirk on this level also works on Superlemmini, and so it's not exclusive to Lemmini. Nice to know. I also tried it just now and indeed it does work. Until then, I had never encountered the behavior in Superlemmini, hence why I was unaware of the miner quirk also working in SL. In short, works on Lemmini and Superlemmini, but not NL), but that quirk is absent in NL, and hence that's why there's a glider in the NL version instead. It's pretty much the closest you can get to the original solution in this way, and hence why some levels require a reworking when converting between engines. I'm sure there are other levels in the pack that had to be tweaked in some way in order to work in NL, but it's been a very long time since I played the pack, so a lot of the levels by title will escape me until I take a look at them.

[IchoTolot]

Thanks for the videos Swerdis!

Will look through them over the next days and then prepare a patch to fix the backroutes you found.

[IchoTolot]

V 3.1 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 3 14 (-1 climber)
- 3 18 (5 climbers are now a pick-up skill)
- 3 20 (1 miner and 1 builder are now a pick-up skill)
- 3 21 (5 builders are now a pick-up skill)
- 3 25 (1 of the pick-up skills has been moved)
- 3 26 (1 builder is now a pick-up skill, added a OWW)
- 3 27 (Fixed up the hole in the steel)
- 3 30 (added another icicle trap and an ice blower)

- 4 05 (1 miner is now a pick-up skill)
- 4 10 (added steel)
- 4 16 (removed some terrain+steel, added some steel)
- 4 23 (made a wall thinner and moved some terrain)
- 4 26 (2 builders are now a pick-up skills)

- 5 02 (added fire)
- 5 03 (some terrain changes, added steel)
- 5 05 (some terrain changes)

[ericderkovits]

ok with this newest update 3 of the replays I have broke.


The 3 that broke were
1) Devilish 14 Chernobyl Survivors(due to -1 climbers, had to solve myself, but still similiar solution.)
2) Maso 23 The Motor show(due to thinning of wall and movement of terrain-just had to alter previous replay some-still same solution)
3) Bonus 5 Lemmings' Ark (due to terrain changes, replay broke. had to alter replay-still based on same solution)
    Also Note this Bonus 5 Lemmings' Ark was actually a Genesis level(Mayhem 30). I'm sure other Genesis levels are filled with backroutes too, but I don't think anybody has patched them.

Also you(Icho) listed 4-12 as being fixed, I think you meant 4-16 as the changes you described in 4-12 were applied to 4-16(Complete Autarky)


Anyways here are my 3 replays that broke(all other ones still work)

[kaywhyn]

Got the new pack update, and just wanted to give a quick remark for Devilish 27. Yes, the central trick required to solve the level is definitely enforced now despite how you can still abuse the digging through steel. However, you can only do that with the left entrance, and there's two spots after the bear trap where it's possible. It doesn't really matter, since the level's rendered impossible to solve if you do abuse it, as you won't have enough skills in the end. Thus, no need to fix the destructible moss in steel in those two places. The most important thing is that the digger must now be used in a specific area on the right side, thus enforcing the central trick.

Besides Devilish 27, I haven't looked at any of the other changed levels in the update. In any case, it'll be quite a while before I play this conversion pack, particularly since I have already completed the pack on Lemmini years ago. Essentially, it means playing the NL version of Dovelems is low priority for me, and there's a bunch of other packs I haven't played that I would like to get to soon. In the meantime, let's see if Shmolem is able to find any further backroutes.

[IchoTolot]

Also you(Icho) listed 4-12 as being fixed, I think you meant 4-16 as the changes you described in 4-12 were applied to 4-16(Complete Autarky)

Fixed.

[Swerdis]

Thanks kaywhyn,

yes, it felt a little strange that a new skill was introduced in the very last regular level of the pack. This was a clear sign that this level must have worked somewhat differently in Lemmini (which I dont' have any experience with). Also, this level was surprisingly easy - as were the two levels before. So, actually, for me the real peak of the pack in the end was Maso 27, "The Spring". This one wasn't THAT hard too, but it turned out to be one of my favourite levels of DoveLems.

Today I completed the penultimate rank of SEB Lems which, as a whole, is way more challenging than the former. I won't concentrate my entire Lemmings-energy on the Rapture rank - I'll give it a try now and then - but the result will be a very slow progress. Instead, I decided to start with PimoLems. I heard it's a little harder than DoveLems, but I hope it won't reach the heights of Flopsy's pack.

[kaywhyn]

Today I completed the penultimate rank of SEB Lems which, as a whole, is way more challenging than the former. I won't concentrate my entire Lemmings-energy on the Rapture rank - I'll give it a try now and then - but the result will be a very slow progress. Instead, I decided to start with PimoLems. I heard it's a little harder than DoveLems, but I hope it won't reach the heights of Flopsy's pack.

Nice job! I haven't played Seb Lems, but it is definitely on my to-play list. From what I heard, it's quite a difficult pack, so I'm definitely looking forward to the challenges in that pack and seeing how badly it will stump me. Given that I have already finished much harder packs like Reunion, United, and Lemmings Plus Alpha, it probably won't be too bad, but I won't know until I actually start playing it. So far, I have only completed the MegaSeBytes levels of the pack, which currently exists as a 30-level pack for Old Formats. I played that, not the actual aforementioned rank in the Seb Lems pack. The 30 MegaSeBytes levels are scattered in the various ranks of Seb Lems.

As for Pimolems, yes, it's definitely harder than Dovelems. In my experiences, the difficulty starts picking up a bit before the midpoint of the second rank, but it really gets amped up starting with the third rank and the difficulty stays quite high until the end of the Hurricane rank. The remaining ranks are special ranks containing levels specializing with the miner and one minute levels in Pickaxe and One ranks, respectively. They are slightly easier than the 4 main ranks, but there's still plenty of tough nuts in those ranks. In contrast, the difficulty curve of Dovelems tends to stay flat and is quite gentle throughout the entire pack. Even then, Pimolems is still quite tame compared to the other far more difficult packs I've mentioned, but I don't think it'll reach the peak of difficulty of what Seb Lems has to offer. This is just mere speculation on my part, as again I have never played Seb Lems, but I'm more certain than not that Pimolems doesn't get anywhere near as hard as Seb Lems.

I'm quite certain that you'll be able to conquer Pimolems in its entirety. As usual, if you get stuck, you can always drop a replay for Icho to view or ask any of us who have completed the pack for hints. I highly doubt you'll need any hints, as I'm positive you'll be able to solve them on your own, but if the need arises, you can ask.

See you on the other level pack topics with your replays and feedback.

[ericderkovits]

yes, Pimolems is also a better quality pack than Dovelems in my opionion. Also Dovelems had so many backroute issues(thus many pack updates by Icho). In comparison, not nearly as many in Pimolems to this point. I think Pieuw did a better job with his designing of levels compared to Dodochacalo. Also I think the levels are not as bland in Pimolems where in Dovelems alot of levels
are kinda dull(my opionion). There are though 6 recreations of glitch levels that had to be changed to fit in NL as those don't work except in the Lemmini version(won't even work in Superlemmini either thus I had to recreate those 6 in my conversion). Also Dovelems in NL didn't have custom music(boring Amiga tunes) where Pimolems had a music link for Pimolems by Icho.

Also as Armani mentioned the reason perhaps Dovelems and Pimolems aren't considered the hardest packs out there (where United and Seblems are harder) is because they came from Lemmini
which only had the original 8 skills.

[kaywhyn]

yes, Pimolems is also a better quality pack than Dovelems in my opionion. Also Dovelems had so many backroute issues(thus many pack updates by Icho). In comparison, not nearly as many in Pimolems to this point. I think Pieuw did a better job with his designing of levels compared to Dodochacalo.

I disagree completely here. Dovelems and Pimolems are both excellent packs in their own ways. Even though Dovelems has much more backroutes than Pimolems, the former is still quite well-liked due to its very gentle difficulty curve (pretty much what I like about it) and plenty of great levels. It also resembles the original Lemmings in terms of structure (4 ranks, 30 levels each). In contrast, Pimolems' main pack is much shorter at 4 ranks of 20 levels each, followed by 3 special ranks and a Bonus rank. I like how Pieuw is very detailed in his read-me file of the pack and his release topic. I enjoyed this pack somewhat more for the better challenges it provides, particularly since figuring out some of the more difficult ones was very satisfying. I probably didn't like some of the levels as much as I should had due to how it's very frustrating in Lemmini with no rewind feature available and how some I had to restart so many times. I definitely remember being frustrated by several Pimolems levels than I was at the Dovelems levels (I think there was only 1 or 2 levels in that pack that frustrated me, one of which was a Maso level Swerdis mentioned, where it wasn't the puzzle that was hard, but the execution). If I ever do end up playing the NL version of Pimolems, it should probably be a much more enjoyable experience overall. Same with Dovelems.

Also, you have to keep in mind that each author's design style is different and how each pack came about. This is where claiming Pimolems being higher quality than Dovelems is quite subjective and is not a fair comparison, since you're comparing apples to oranges here with the pack authors themselves. Some aren't bothered as much with backroutes (Dodochacalo), while others are (Pieuw). It doesn't mean that the former levels are bad or low-quality in any way. Dovelems was pretty much Dodochacalo's first pack that is still very well made, while Pimolems is a pack that has plenty of levels that came from other smaller packs Pieuw made. Pieuw might had been better in specializing at designing levels requiring exotic tricks, but remember that Dodochacalo has some of those levels as well in his other smaller packs. In any case, both Dovelems and Pimolems are very well-liked and have held up quite well to this day, backroute ridden or not.

Regarding the music, if you're bothered by the boring standard Amiga music, you can always mute it and put on your own music. Granted, it won't always sync up with the playing of levels, and will probably get annoying after a certain point, but there's always that.

[IchoTolot]

V 3.2 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 2 03 (added traps and terrain)
- 2 05 (moved some flamers)
- 2 08 (RR set to 70 and locked)
- 2 11 (some terrain changes)

[IchoTolot]

Alright, the Plain replays I found from the SYCLW challenge showed no additional backroutes.

[uberwolfie]

Hi guys!

I felt like weighing in here, as I've been continuing to work on PimoLems, even as I needed to focus a bit more on work. I also took a break to finish Lemmings 2 so that RTW's let's play wouldn't get too ahead of me. I'm decently close to finishing PimoLems, just have slightly less than half of the One and Pickaxe ranks to get through, as well as the last half dozen or so levels of Hurricane, none of which will prove pushovers I'm certain

I will probably produce a complete review document of PimoLems, like I previously did with DoveLems, as I feel, like kaywhyn, that both these packs are important historically and aesthetically (not to mention in puzzle design of course), and I want to document my complete reaction. Also Icho you might be interested in my replays at that point, but it does seem like in PimoLems there's a lot less to fix.

I definitely share Eric's subjective experience that PimoLems is a better quality, stronger pack than DoveLems, although they certainly both have their strengths and weaknesses. DoveLems is definitely more approachable (I'm glad I played it first), but suffers very badly in the Maso rank from bad difficulty curve (I can't at all see why "Z for Zemmings" wasn't one of the very last major challenges in the pack). And the last two ranks in particular are extremely backroute prone, as we've seen especially recently with my and Swerdis's discoveries, and as I mentioned before, this left a bad taste in my mouth overall, even as I admired greatly many of the levels. I also have a certain distaste for what I think of as the "gimmick" levels, but that's more a matter of personal preference.

On the other hand, DoveLems I would say has more of an aesthetic, artistic atmosphere about it, Pieuw certainly has his moments in PimoLems, but Dodochacalo takes this to a new place. I'm also unsure about the relative predominance of levels in PimoLems requiring glitches. I like glitches, but I feel somehow that they're not a part of "regular" puzzle solving. In any case those levels, which of course I missed playing the NeoLemmix version, seem to have been tastefully handled from what I've seen.

Overall PimoLems has provided me a lot more satisfaction in terms of gameplay, and I really do get the sense that Pieuw is a more careful crafter of pure challenges. If the aesthetic is not an overt focus apart from a few beautiful cosmetic touches, the level architecture often seems like not a pixel is out of place as regards to the functioning of the puzzle, like it's been meticulously refined. And this impression is further backed up when I see him very often having a dialogue in YouTube comments and here on the board with people who play his levels, whereas Dodochacalo seems like a somewhat aloof figure these days (was he ever active much here or elsewhere?).

kaywhyn, you've also touched on something I have been wondering about, which is the exact relationship between the two packs; obviously both creators are French (I assume?) and many levels of DoveLems seem to be inspired by levels of PimoLems, or possibly vice versa. In some ways it seems almost like they have, or had (speaking of the landscape of this community in the Lemmini era) a common goal in terms of extending the field of possibilities of puzzle design, with DoveLems ending up feeling like a more "fun" introduction, and PimoLems being much more punishing, a compendium of unforgiving challenges.

Anyway, just my two cents this may have been discussed in depth before, but would be curious to hear from those who remember, or just have different feelings.

Btw, I'm also interested if there's ever been a proper ranking of difficulty of all the NeoLemmix packs out there, or at least the most famous ones. I haven't been able to find a handy list, just certain sporadic opinions. I know this is very subjective, but it's interesting to think about what makes a level hard in terms of specific attributes, for instance is it true as Eric implies that it's more difficult to make hard levels when only using the original L1 skills? maybe I should start a topic on this on another board to get a broader survey of opinions, or maybe someone else already has...

(PS: kaywhyn congrats on United, that's a massive achievement! )