[NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]

[ericderkovits]

finally posted devilish 25 on youtube. yep that's the solution

[uberwolfie]

Hi everyone!
First time posting on the forums! I started playing Lemmings again recently, made it all the way through Redux (which was great!) and now all the way through DoveLems. I'm not sure whether my replays are of interest, but there are several levels which, if not all backroutes, I was at least disappointed to have solved in a way that didn't let me appreciate the central insight of the puzzle. I've written a rather long document reviewing each level and outlining these alternate solutions, but I don't know if there is really the interest in reading that? It's quite long but I can share if anyone (especially Ichotolot) would find useful. I was sorry to see the DoveLems thread die on the other forum, and maybe that's a better place for it? (these smileys are so cute)
In particular though I wanted to draw your attention here to my solution for Maso 27 ("The Spring"). Given that this was clearly supposed to be some kind of zenith of Maso and thus the whole series, the trivial solution I found which I haven't seen anyone here or on YouTube mention was especially disappointing to me. Forgive me if this is old news though.

If you don't want to dig through the replays:

Spoiler

If you send one lemming out to dig on each of the one way platforms where the blockers are supposed to go in the intended solution, you can then bash and because of the OWW the lemming will turn around, leaving a high enough barrier and obviating the need for blockers or the complicated machinery of their release.

[ericderkovits]

yes, Your solution for Maso 27 The Spring is definitely a backroute. I wonder if Icho can fix this so this solution can be stopped.

Also I would like uberwolfie's entire replays to be checked for other backroutes that he says are disappointing.

As I would like to see backroutes fixed too.

Now I might have to go my Superlemmini conversion of Dovelems and start working on backroutes from the neolemmix version.

[kaywhyn]

eric, there's no need to post replays like that when uberwolfie has already posted the replay for Maso 27. Icho sees everything, and uber has posted all of the pack's replays, so he will get it from his post.

[IchoTolot]

Thanks for the replays and welcome to the forums uberwolfie!

I will definitly dig through those and fix any backroutes I come across - especially the "The Spring" one sounds nasty. I bet it can be easily fixed though through something like making the diggers available later through pick-ups right after the staircase or some OWW-up arrows. Will see to it tomorrow probably as it's getting late here.

You can also post your document here if you like. I won't promise reading every sentence if it's extremely long, but having additional insight to your thought process, likes and dislikes can be very helpful for people. I have to point out though that I probably won't do any drastic changes to levels here because of personal dislikes - that are not related to pure unfairness in a level of course - as this is still a conversion of Dodochacalo's pack and his levels.
From the backroute perspective though the replays should be enough for that.

yes, Your solution for Maso 27 The Spring is definitely a backroute. I wonder if Icho can fix this so this solution can be stopped.

Anyway, Icho here is uberwolfie's replay for Maso 27 The Spring. Also Icho maybe you should check his entire replays for other backroutes that he says are disappointing.

As I would like to see backroutes fixed too.

Now I might have to go my Superlemmini conversion of Dovelems and start working on backroutes from the neolemmix version.

If you noticed anything from my pack topics so far is that I get my hands on all replays posted here, search them all for backroutes and fix them accordingly when I get to it.
They can all be fixed! - although I am not so sure on SuperLemmini as sometimes pick-ups are kind of required.
So there is no need to repost this replay as it's alredy included in the collection - again I go through all of them.

[uberwolfie]

To save you going through all of them, here are the levels which I solved with any solution that doesn't seem intended by Dodo or Icho:

Spoiler

1 8 (hard to say what's intended this early)
1 20 (very slight)
1 24 (I just don't understand the circuitousness of Dodo's demonstrated solution)
1 27
1 29 (slight)

2 3
2 9 (I just wonder whether the added steel block makes the solution very slightly easier?)
2 15 (an equivalent solution to intended?)
2 19
2 26 (much discussed already)

3 3
3 5 (I think equivalent, but seems messier)
3 10
3 14 (same (backroute?) solution works on both versions)
3 20
3 21
3 25
3 27 (just wanted to point out that, if you combine my solution with the intended one, you can do this with only 11 builders!)

4 2
4 8
4 9 (this seems to be Icho's solution, but it does seem a bit less interesting to me than the original?)
4 10
4 11
4 12
4 13 (not using the digger in the centre of the level seems impossible with Dodo's original layout?)
4 14 (equivalent I think)
4 16
4 17
4 20
4 21 (again I think equivalent)
4 27 (as pointed out in previous post)
4 29

[uberwolfie]

Thanks! Great to be here this seems like such a nice community, and we are all bound together by the greatness of Lemmings of course!

Yes, Icho, I have noticed your extreme dedication to perfecting levels' solutions, it's most admirable. I'll edit my (quite long) document a bit and then share it here. Of course my personal feelings should not affect anything, but it was definitely the many solutions I found which left me slightly confused that contributed to a certain disappointment overall with DoveLems - but the pack is still a great achievement, as I'm sure we all agree.

[kaywhyn]

This is definitely the right place to be if you love the game and are wanting more to play via the many custom level packs available here. Just search the Neolemmix, levels for other engines, and Superlemmini boards for them. There's so many packs available that it'll definitely take a really long time to get through them all. It's a good thing in that the amount of content available is never in shortage, although what is is the amount of easier levels. You're certainly more than welcome to take on the hard level packs if you love a challenge, but if it's been a while since you played the game, it helps to brush up on the easier packs first before doing so. Of course, you're under no obligation to play the hard packs, but they are available to play if you want to. Although, seeing how you already managed to finish Redux and a really good pack in Dovelems, which I feel is the first custom pack most people play (it certainly was the first one I played once I found out about the forums and transitioned from playing custom packs on Dos), you're probably well on your way towards making good progress to playing the harder stuff.

It's also a very friendly community as you have seen who are more than happy to help you out with anything if you ask and can't figure something out. Maybe you can even get into level designing, although it's certainly fine if you're just here to play level packs as well as to make banter with the community. At least that's what I'm doing. I likely will not get into making level packs, but lately I have been inspired to give level making a try by some levels I've played in the pack I'm currently trying to complete. I've stated over and over that I'm no good when it comes to level designing, but the thing is I won't really know that I'm not unless I try.

[uberwolfie]

For what it's worth, attached are my complete thoughts on DoveLems.

Thanks so much for the kind words kaywhyn! Assuming I keep up my current rate of playing the game (which will almost certainly change once I have actual work to do again ) I can see myself having the occasional "banter" about various levels. And I could start level designing, I tend to think very visually, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time before ideas start to occur to me for my own levels - but before that happens I definitely look forward to exploring all the many (many) levels on offer here. It is slightly intimidating to see even the hardest DoveLems levels described as "Medium", but I suppose it didn't take me ALL that long to solve most of them...it certainly is a great pack for a smooth transition to the harder tricks that the original games didn't touch.

[kaywhyn]

For what it's worth, attached are my complete thoughts on DoveLems.

Thanks so much for the kind words kaywhyn! Assuming I keep up my current rate of playing the game (which will almost certainly change once I have actual work to do again ) I can see myself having the occasional "banter" about various levels. And I could start level designing, I tend to think very visually, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time before ideas start to occur to me for my own levels - but before that happens I definitely look forward to exploring all the many (many) levels on offer here. It is slightly intimidating to see even the hardest DoveLems levels described as "Medium", but I suppose it didn't take me ALL that long to solve most of them...it certainly is a great pack for a smooth transition to the harder tricks that the original games didn't touch.

You're welcome. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the level pack in the PDF file. I haven't read all your thoughts on every level of Dovelems, but there are a few points of interest in your intro paragraph. Some remarks:

Pimolems was the second custom pack I played after I finished Dovelems. So far, I have completed both of these on Lemmini. I have yet to take on the NL versions of them. Pimolems was a pack where I gave up in frustration and didn't come back to play the pack again for about 2-3 years. The level that stopped me dead in my tracks was Hurricane 3. When I did come back, I was able to get past it and proceed to finish the rest of the pack. It's definitely harder than Dovelems. As you have seen, Dovelems tends to have a very gentle difficulty curve and it stays fairly simple throughout, whereas for Pimolems, I say the difficulty really picks up about halfway through the second rank, but it definitely gets hard starting with the third rank and stays difficult all the way through the end of the Hurricane rank. Needless to say, Dovelems tends to stay closer and truer to the original Lemmings in terms of ranks and levels (30 levels in each of the 4 main ranks) and difficulty, whereas Pimolems is only slightly different in terms of structure (20 levels each in 7 ranks, except for the Special which has 5 levels in the NL version, two of which are Reunion levels, but only 3 in the Lemmini version) but is definitely more difficult.

Reunion was the third custom pack I played and is, to date, the largest custom pack I have completed (that will soon change because I am nearly done with Icho's other main pack, United). I too have only completed it on Lemmini. At the time when I played through the pack, I was working a job, which was why it took me 3 months to finish the pack. The level that had me stuck the longest was Nightmare 16. Regarding the pack, it has a really great difficulty curve, but it certainly gets harder much faster than the original game. In particular, the last few levels in the first rank are all difficult. However, I'm quite certain you'll be able to finish it. If you ever get terribly stuck, you can always ask for hints and send a replay for Icho to see, and he'll be glad to tell you whether or not if you're on the right track towards a solution.

Geoflems is a pack I certainly would like to play at some point. From what I read, it's on the much easier side, which I can certainly use after having played mostly United for the last several months, and the levels in there are quite brutal (hard-extreme). Though it's almost been a year since I first played the pack, and I have had so many struggles, I am getting very near the end (only 6 levels left in the Bonus rank, then just 4 Genocide levels I need to go back and resolve the new versions of and then I'll finally be done). Needless to say, after you finish Reunion and if you're definitely feeling up to it, feel free to take on Icho's other pack United, but be warned it's probably the most difficult pack there is currently available. It's definitely not for the faint of heart or the easily frustrated. Or feel free to stay to other easier packs. Up to you, of course. 

[uberwolfie]

No problem! Had so many thoughts that I felt I had to record them.
PimoLems does seem more "condensed" in difficulty than DoveLems, certainly, and definitely harder. Can't say for certain, but I'm halfway through, and I think that overall I will find it a stronger pack than DoveLems.
Good to hear that Reunion is approachable. United definitely seems like it's the work of a madman! (in the best possible sense naturally )
GeoffLems I saw namida speak favourably about - it's pretty amicable so far!

[kaywhyn]

If you're looking for other packs to play, other packs that I have played that I can also recommend are Reverse Lemmings, Sublems, Mobilems, and Lemmings Plus 1. The first two are currently available for Superlemmini and NL, while Mobilems is currently available for Lemmini and NL and is currently being converted to Superlemmini by eric. Lemmings Plus 1 is available for Dos and NL. All of these packs are on the easier side. The first one, as the name says, is simply the original Lemmings with a twist: The entrances and exits switch places and the skillsets adjusted accordingly. Given how you already finished Redux which has most of the levels from the original game, this should be very enjoyable for you. The last one is comparable to the original Lemmings in that there's 4 ranks with 30 levels each and very similar difficulty.

If you're willing to look into Superlemmini, I can also recommend eric's conversion packs of the official games (Lemmings, ONML, Genesis, Sega, etc) and Lemmini packs. Also, I haven't played them, but I would love to eventually get to namida's other Plus and Omega packs, so I can suggest you take a look at them too, especially if you want content a little on the easier side.

In any case, enjoy your time here on the forums! It's always wonderful to see more new members registering and joining.

[uberwolfie]

Cheers for that, great information!
I might look into SuperLemmini, it seems like it has it's own thing going, but tbh NeoLemmix just seems so miraculous to me (compared to the original games) that it's hard to look past it right now.

[kaywhyn]

Cheers for that, great information!
I might look into SuperLemmini, it seems like it has it's own thing going, but tbh NeoLemmix just seems so miraculous to me (compared to the original games) that it's hard to look past it right now.

That's completely understandable. Not a problem with the multitude of engines available, as there's at least something for everyone.

[IchoTolot]

Cheers for that, great information!
I might look into SuperLemmini, it seems like it has it's own thing going, but tbh NeoLemmix just seems so miraculous to me (compared to the original games) that it's hard to look past it right now.

I feel like I should mention the new NeoLemmix Introduction Pack here as well: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4332.0

It's still in development (even if somewhat close to the first V1.0), but I could still use some feedback there. It will 100% teach you things I you didn't know were possible before!

I aimed it at people learning the basics as well as people who want to know more about the most common and even some advanced tricks.

The levels in there are partly trivial for teaching purposes, but still should offer some challenge later as you then need to see where and how you need to apply your new knowledge. The later training ranks should definitly pack at least a bit of punch.