[NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]

[IchoTolot]

For the music: Be careful with putting in the music of the YouTube LP. It is most likely that he used a different track for every single level --> Your SL conversion will get VERY bloated in terns of filesize + filecount and you then have 145 music tracks just for this pack! It is likely a reason why the original Lemmini version did not do this (and also Lemmini not supporting MP3).

125. You're thinking of Pimolems

You are right. Still, 125 music tracks is not much better.

[ericderkovits]

yes I know music bloats my SL, but this doesn't bother me. Also In the Lemmings Reunion pack I gave the choice even to use the NL version music(which uses ogg-not in the original Lemmini version which uses the .mods-less space). But I enjoy better music. And since Dodo in his Youtube Dovelems LP uses other music, I still will give the choice like I did with Reunion.

and as far as being in MP3 that's not a problem as I use an online converter to convert to .ogg like I did with many for Dodo's franlems, cachapac and dodopac

[WillLem]

To be fair, music isn't that bloating (as compared to, say, video files), especially when it's in a compressed format like OGG, MOD or even MP3.

Also, once you have the music in your collection it's there for any pack that may use it, and gives you the opportunity to use it for your own packs.

[Proxima]

Replays for the Devilish rank. Not a huge amount to comment on in this rank -- don't think I found any real backroutes, though I sometimes had skills left over through being a bit more efficient than the level required.

WillLem and I were playing this together last night and we both commented on Level 17 "Maze in a Clepsydra". This requires one miner to release another, at the end of a long solution, with no skills available to correct the timing if it isn't already correct. As you know, this trick is relatively easy to pull off on most versions of Lemmings, but extremely fiddly on NL, requiring the relative timing of the two lemmings to be frame-precise. Not sure there is anything you can do about it without spoiling the puzzle, but felt it should be pointed out.

[IchoTolot]

The solutions are all acceptable or intended.

As you know, this trick is relatively easy to pull off on most versions of Lemmings, but extremely fiddly on NL, requiring the relative timing of the two lemmings to be frame-precise. Not sure there is anything you can do about it without spoiling the puzzle, but felt it should be pointed out.

Yeah, this is the problem of the level in general and there isn't really something I can do about it without completely changing the level. You mostly can achive this by varying the assignment of the skills before especially the miner position. It isn't totally frame perfect though and there is a LITTLE bit of leeway.

[IchoTolot]

I completely forgot that ShmoLem sent me DoveLems replays as well! Again they seem to be played on an older version as some replays were broken. The broken replays were:

1 20
3 14, 3 18, 3 21, 3 25, 3 27, 3 30
4 23
5 05

There were 2 backroutes though. -->

V 3.6 is out!

Backroute fixes based on ShmoLem's replays:

- 3 16 (some terrain changes)
- 3 26 (some terrain changes)

[jkapp76]

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZSCxKXZuvFk9ine5XJrWSopFvDQr0q8JFzV

Here is a music pack for DoveLems. I downloaded this long ago for SuperLemmini and all I did here was create the Music.nxmi file and organize it so it plays in the correct order.

The download size is 378mb, so it's big, but I think it's worth the time. Just place the "Dovelems music" folder in your "music" folder and put the Music.nxmi file in your DoveLems Level folder.

[ericderkovits]

good job jkapp76. This is Dodo's choice of music he uses on his youtube channel when replaying his levels. I use this music also in Superlemmini's version, as it's better than the default amiga tunes.

[Proxima]

Replays for the Maso and Bonus ranks. There were just a couple of levels where I want to raise concerns:

Spoiler

Maso 11 "A Hard Nut Level": The solution in the attached screenshot feels intended, and would probably work in another engine, but fails in NL because of the builder's additional terrain checks. I was able to rearrange some skills to make a solution that worked, but this is now extremely tight and feels not-quite-intended. Maybe you could make the horizontal bar in the bottom-right 1 pixel thick instead of 2?

Maso 17 "The Crossing (Part III)": A plausible solution (replay attached) fails by literally two frames, and the solution I found that worked is again uncomfortably precise and doesn't feel quite intended. Since it has 9 seconds to spare, perhaps the exit could be moved further away to make it clearer that the first approach can't work?

Bonus 5 "Lemmings' Ark": This is just the original level. Should this still be packaged together with DoveLems, now that it is easily available to NL players in both the Genesis levels pack and Lemmings Redux?

[Proxima]

I solved all the levels.

[IchoTolot]

Will see when I get to the replays. I will probably be away next weekend but maybe I find time+mood to get through them during the week.

The Crossing was a level where I basically just let it be by now as quite a few alternatives popped up that are not really patchable. The moving the exit thing I will look into though. I will need to check if moving it will make other solutions extra tight.
The Hard Nut solutions looks like backroute though and I tend to patch it out, but I will see during the replay watching.

[IchoTolot]

V 3.7 is out!

Backroute fixes based on Proxima's replays:

- 4 11 (changed the bottom OWW to go both sides.)
- 4 13 (a builder is now a pick-up skill)

I've decided to not change Maso 17 "The Crossing (Part III)" because:

- Your solution that fails is actually the backroute I tried to block all the time.
- Your other solution that leaves 9 seconds is a variant of the intended one, even if it doesn't feel quite intended to you.
- Other viable solutions leave pretty much no time on the clock --> Moving the exits would make your backroute viable and on the other hand block intended solutions.

Let's say the level is not my favorite either and personally I would not include it in my own packs. At this point I only change it around when absolutely nessesary as even slight changes often introduce backroutes or make viable solutions unviable.

Bonus 5 "Lemmings' Ark": This is just the original level. Should this still be packaged together with DoveLems, now that it is easily available to NL players in both the Genesis levels pack and Lemmings Redux?

Dodo wanted the level in the bonus rank of the pack and I think even if it is somewhat redundant now it's fine.

[kaywhyn]

First two ranks complete. Replays attached and of course feedback, though of course would be more useful for Dodochacalo since Icho simply maintains the conversion of the pack.

General Feedback

DoveLems is a custom Lemmings level pack by Dodochacalo. While MazuLems was the very first custom level pack I ever played, DoveLems would be the very first huge, full game I ever played. I'll never forget how I found out about the pack thanks to rtw's LP of it. I remember searching for "custom Lemmings levels" or something like that on Youtube, and one of the things that popped up was a video by rtw which showed what the Lemmini engine was capable of. I immediately got hooked, and so I set off to set it up on my computer Then I went to get the pack itself, which I think might had led me to the Lemmings Forums, though it wouldn't be for several more years before I became a registered member of the site. Thus began my foray into the custom Lemmings scene on a port other than Dos, the one I grew up with. I ended up finishing the pack in about a week, I believe, back in the days on Lemmini. I don't exactly remember when I downloaded the pack, but I'm certain it was either one of 2012, 2013, or 2014. I'm thinking the last one of the three, as that was when I played through PimoLems before I didn't come back to the pack until 2017, when I finally did finish Pieuw's pack. I definitely finished DoveLems before playing through PimoLems, though, since the latter was the second custom level pack on Lemmini I played through. According to files on my hard drive, it appears I did indeed play through DoveLems in 2014.

Just to clarify in case I confused anyone, I have only played the Lemmini version of DoveLems. I haven't yet played Icho's NL conversion of the pack. I feel that now's a good time for me to finally do so, as I have already played through his conversion of Lemmings Reunion and Pieuw's PimoLems to NL. Time for me to finish up the triangle here! The interesting thing is that I went backwards for NL. On Lemmini, in order, first I did DoveLems, then PimoLems, and finally Lemmings Reunion. Whereas for NL, I first did Lemmings Reunion, then PimoLems, and finally I'm doing DoveLems. Icho has definitely did a great job with his own Reunion pack and same thing with maintaining the NL conversions of the other two level packs, one from Dodochacalo, the other from Pieuw.

Also, I think I only watched either the first or second level of rtw's video before I decided to try out the pack myself. I think I remember watching more of his LP as I completed more of the pack just to compare and also because it's fun to hear how his experience with the pack/levels was. I definitely was blown away by Dodochacalo's pack at the time and when I finished it. Indeed, the pack's popularity can be seen in this thread from how several members have finished the pack. Going through the pack again after so long has definitely reminded me why I like Dodochacalo's pack a lot. Not to mention that it's great going back to easier than usual levels again after a long time, when I've played nothing but hard levels for the last several months.

As it's been a long time since I last played through DoveLems, I definitely have forgotten a lot of the levels, especially from the first two ranks, Plain and Coward. At the same time, I did see resemblance of Dodochacalo's level building style with that of Pieuw's in some of the Coward levels. Indeed, Pieuw has confirmed that back in the days he and Dodochacalo bounced off a lot of ideas from one another for their levels. Needless to say, they got a lot of inspiration from one another.

Not relevant to this topic, but Dodochacalo has also authored two mini 10-level packs, as well as FranLems, a 40-level pack that is entirely in French, as he hails from France, just like Pieuw, the author of PimoLems. These packs are also all for Lemmini. I too remember starting FranLems, got stuck on some Pillar level, and didn't come back to the pack for a while, though I can't recall if I finished that before or after PimoLems.

I think it's now been about a year or so, but Pieuw gave us word that he and Dodochacalo are currently collaborating with each other on a new level pack. However, Pieuw hasn't been able to get a hold of Dodochacalo for a while, and so it appears that progress has come to a halt for the time being. In particular, Pieuw doesn't wish to touch any of Dodochacalo's levels without his permission, and so he simply is working on making changes to his own levels or making new ones without the latter's contribution. I'm hoping Pieuw does eventually get a hold of him, as I would definitely love to see their finished pack. I really like both DoveLems and PimoLems and think quite highly of them. Recently, I saw that Dodochacalo released an update for his Lemmini packs near the end of 2023 according to Dropbox info, while NeoDoveLems' Dropbox link hasn't been updated since 2021.

I'm not sure if Dodochacalo was ever a member of this site, so maybe a longtime member can confirm this?

Plain Rank Feedback

The first rank of the pack, it starts off with mostly single skill type tutorial levels, followed by easy levels/puzzles. However, I must say that while going through the rank that honestly I don't remember the difficulty being very wonky. That's how long it's been since I last played the pack on Lemmini. For example, I got stuck longer than I should had on both Plain 11 and Plain 30, though to be fair for the latter it is the final level of the rank. It definitely didn't help that I was doing a very late night solving session, and as we probably all know when you're exhausted you tend to not think clearly mentally. Thus, for the former it made me wonder what it was doing that early in the rank, especially as it was a limited skills level mixed in with the X-of-everythings around it. Then again, the pack is more patched up than it is on Lemmini and therefore the levels are likely more challenging than they should be as a result. Even then, the pack's difficulty still doesn't come anywhere near those of some packs that were later released, such as Reunion and NepsterLems.

Plain 1 - Again our Famous Lemmings ! Good level that is a great way to ease oneself into the custom Lemmings scene and get back into the game of Lemmings, though my nitpick is the first miner is more precise than it needs to be and therefore this can probably be a bit too harsh in players' eyes for the first level of the pack. Then again, you only need to save 4 out of 20 so that even if you don't place the first miner correctly you can still savage the level and convert it to a solve.

Plain 8 - The Snowy Base Hmm yea, this level seems quite a bit difficult for its position because of the skillset, though again the save requirement is extremely lenient.

Spoiler

The hardest part here is getting down safely, though then again maybe I'm more critical of the level than I need to be, because I do believe it's possible to simply get everyone down to the bottom and then simply build up, instead of the faster solution I used of just bunkering everyone at the top. 10 builders does seem that it's more than enough to get up completely from the bottom.

Plain 11 - Concentration Camp As mentioned, I was stumped here for a bit but again it didn't help that I was doing a very late night solving session. I still stand by the assertion that this level seems a bit hard for its position, though I know the ordering won't change since this is Dodochacalo's pack and therefore Icho simply kept the level order as it is.

Spoiler

For some reason I kept thinking to sneak enough past the first stumper trap, when in fact you can simply avoid losses and put blockers before they walk into the trap triggers. However, now that I'm looking at it again I think it is possible to do just that.

edit: Yea, it's possible. Replay attached, so two replays for Plain 11

Plain 15 - Ground Floor, Please Great level and a fun one to go for the extra challenge of a save all

Plain 19 - Yours Diabolically Another really fun one to go for a save all, even if it's a bit repetitive

Plain 20 - Wooden House Hmm, I'm not sure how I feel about the major changes to the skillset here because of SYCLW. This seems very harsh for a first rank level now!

Spoiler

If my solution is intended/acceptable, then here we have a case of a level where you need to build to reach the exit trigger, which honestly is a huge leap especially for casual players. In addition, building to get over an exit. Both of these in the same level make it too difficult IMO.

Plain 23 - Can you Bomb It? Another level that seems a bit harsh, though in fairness it is close to the end of the rank. In addition, the same solution for its repeat in the next rank can be used here, though of course there's still multiple ways to solve this one.

Plain 26 - Stalactites or Shortcut ! An excellent level with a time limit that's well-justified!

Plain 27 - Lemmings on the Spot I really like the sense of urgency of finishing on time here!

Plain 28 - Here's the Final Flourish Another level that's probably too harsh for a first rank, though again it's justified being near the very end of the rank.

Spoiler

Nuke levels tend to be in the later ranks of a pack, hence why I think this type of level is a bit harsh for just the first rank

Plain 30 - Cisterns, Chains and Blocks The other level that I got stumped on longer than necessary but a really good one to finish off the rank, particularly since it has some elements that haven't been seen in any of the earlier levels of the rank.

Spoiler

Splat hatch and red herrings that look like they could work but will leave you short on bashers if you choose the wrong side. So, the player needs to think which side needs to be taken because there actually is a "wrong" choice."

I kept thinking I was a basher short no matter what, when in fact I didn't think about the bashing at the end part correctly. I kept thinking to bash to get to the right exit and then I wouldn't have anymore to free the crowd, when in actuality you go for the left exit despite needing to go through the maze on the right side of the level.

Coward Rank Feedback

Being the second rank, the levels here are a bit harder than the ones in the previous rank. Interestingly enough, I cruised through the rank a bit faster than I did with the Plain rank.

Spoiler

Coward 1 - Caution, Work in Progress ! Good level to start off the rank but IMO maybe a bit difficult to start it off. Then again, I realized much later that my solution is a bit harder than it needs to be, as interrupting a basher midstroke isn't really required at all.

Coward 2 - Toes of the Earth Nothing too special other than using miners to get through obstacles instead of bashers

Coward 3 - Impolite Climbers Nice puzzle involving figuring out how to get outside to release the crowd. This would be a good introduction level to building to reach the exit trigger, meaning Plain 20 can probably go to somewhere here in the second rank.

Coward 4 - Use Something to Turn ! Probably way too harsh for this early in the second rank, though the level does at least teach the player how to turn around with just builders/miners instead of relying on the common method of blockers.

Coward 5 - Avoid the FlameThrower Excellent level! Another one that teaches the player that you can use the tail end to get your worker Lemming instead of the one in the front or the first one.

Coward 6 - Under the Floor Great level teaching the player that one of the entrances needs help from the other one to get down and to the exit safely.

Coward 7 - City Machines Lemmings Another excellent level! This one definitely reminded me of Nepster's Scarlet level from the Planet rank of NepsterLems, which if I'm not mistaken won LOTY.

Coward 8 - Break the Wall Great puzzle, one of my favorites too. The method to get a climber to dig in such a way so that the others are still contained and he can build to reach the exit is ingenious. Your choice as to releasing the others with either someone from the crowd or by having the climber turn around, though it depends if the latter turns around or not, which is dependent on how low you dig before you mine.

Coward 9 - Where a Lemming Has Never Gone Ceiling route! Also making that splatform with the floater.

Coward 10 - Bashers Are Back ! Repeat of Plain 3 and a non-trivial bashers only level but it's still not that hard, though extra care must be taken of dealing with the first two Lemmings so that no one turns around at the start.

Coward 11 - Every Lem for Himself ! Excellent level! I especially like the mining to delay the left entrance long enough for the left builder to finish. Same with bashing with the second Lemming from the bottom right entrance so the builder is left undisturbed and the bombing the digger once low enough to allow the top left entrance through the OWW.

Coward 12 - To Infinity and BEYOND !!! Ah, Dodochacalo must be a Toy Story fan. Repeat of Plain 18 but with bombers in place of the bashers. I don't think the left side is plausible this time around.

Coward 13 - SeeSaw Great puzzle, especially with having the worker turn around first before digging and then making the path before releasing the others with digger/basher staircases, which the level teaches the player. I definitely remember some of those from PimoLems!

Coward 14 - The Labyrinth of the Lemmynotaur Nothing special other than red herring bombers which can't be used since you need to save everyone.

Coward 15 - Strato and Cumulus Ah, the level IMO which Proxima was correct to say that earlier versions of it is too difficult for its position this early in the pack and hence it is harmed by it. This change that Icho made is definitely better, though it still took me a few tries before I got it solved since it's been a while since I last took a look at this.

Coward 16 - Trident of Fire Hmm, I think I remember this one being a bit annoying to do on Lemmini because of the timing. This one took me a few tries as well before I got it all to work out, though I do acknowledge that I might had made it more complicated than I needed to. Nice music choice here, seems that Dodochacalo is an Aladdin fan too! Since it is the opening song of the movie.

Coward 17 - Lost in the Canyon I was able to save two miners here, but it's definitely to make it easier to get the others up rather than build up to the second miner tunnel. I think it would still use all the builders anyway.

Coward 18 - The Broken Tower Nice level teaching players how to make a climber friendly wall for the others with a builder when there's a single pixel gap between the walls.

Coward 19 - Observation Posts Nice level. That's especially a nice red herring of looking like it's possible to go over the top to reach the exit but you don't have enough builders for that.

Coward 20 - It's Not an Illusion ! Easy, though the time limit is quite tight, but that can be less of a problem if you simply up the RR at the start and then max it out at the right time. It's easier to place the blockers on Lemmini since it's not possible to do a passthrough blocker on that engine.

Coward 21 - Death Camp Had a much easier time with this one than Plain 11, interestingly enough. I think it was due to how I remember there being climber bombing which I was distracted by on the Plain version.

Coward 22 - The Giant Stairway Easy one as long as you place your builders right and don't touch the RR before you need to.

Coward 23 - Ask the Oracle Took me some time, as I couldn't remember how to solve it, but that long basher on the right side is a bit hard to see. Seems the athlete skills are red herrings, but I could be wrong.

Coward 24 - Lemmings-Digging Iron Plates Much easier since the guesswork is taken out completely due to NL standards. For Lemmini, it's complete guesswork, though I think there is a way to tell where it's destructible. Not sure, but I will be going through the Lemmini version of the pack once I'm done with the NL conversion and I have recorded my commentary video series

Coward 25 - Academy of Eight Excellent level! I really like how it's all logical where the skills go in order to get everyone to the exit. I have a blocker left, but I think it's simply to make some timing easier.

Coward 26 - Let Him Go Alone ... This one gave me trouble, as I couldn't remember how to do it. In the end I made the solution probably a bit harder than it needed to be. The start is a bit fiddly as a result. I tried the Lemmini version which seems to have one additional digger, but I got it to work after a bit struggling there too. Not sure why I didn't see the Lemmini solution earlier I do believe there's a PimoLems level that hinges on a similar method here, so you can definitely see the inspiration that Dodochacalo and Pieuw got from one another!

Coward 27 - Molotov Cocktail and Co Ah, yup another level I can see where Pieuw got inspiration from. It's a great level that can teach players how to make staircases with blockers/diggers, though it's not necessary as you can lose 2, but the challenge for the save all is there if you want to go for it. I personally am not a fan of levels where you need to repeatedly spam the same skill(s) over and over. This one is definitely a much more extreme version of Pieuw's from PimoLems, as his level is less repetitive and also only has two Lemmings.

Coward 28 - Valley of Chameleon Was stuck for a bit since I was figuring out how to save a builder, but I was simply a dummy and didn't think to bash through the OWW before doing the building at the end. That part is genius, with the climber going over to do it and then the others can free themselves with a miner. Excellent level, with my only nitpick is the first miner at the start is too precise.

Coward 29 - Sky Won't Help You Quite easy for this late in the rank. Nothing special other than upside down water that has strange trigger areas that's far below where the water is.

Coward 30 - A Perfect Symmetry First level of the pack to have pickups. Another nice level to finish the Coward rank on. I really like how the solution all comes together in the end with work in different parts of the level. Can be chaotic but luckily it's a short level and is easy to manage other than the high RR which makes things tricky. 

Looking forward to going through the remaining two main ranks of the pack! Definitely enjoying DoveLems again after so long and remembering why I think it's an excellent pack in the first place!    

[kaywhyn]

I was just on a roll both yesterday and today and played and solved the rest of the pack, so it's all complete and therefore my entire replay collection is attached and of course some additional feedback

Devilish Rank Feedback

Things really start to pick up in the difficulty here, though they don't peak here. Instead, that would be for the Maso rank. Once again, while going through this rank, there were a lot of levels that I didn't remember here. In addition, some of the levels got me wondering whether I was playing a DoveLems level or a PimoLems level, as I definitely remember a similar level from the latter, whether in the design or possibly even the level title. Not to mention some of them did get me to go, "This is a DoveLems level? Wow, I actually don't remember some of these!" Yup, that's how long it's been since I last went through the entire pack on Lemmini!

Spoiler

Devilish 1 - Welcome to the Jungle ! Ah, must be a Guns N' Roses fan. Quite a nice level to start off the rank! Unless I made the solution harder than it needed to be, I kind of vaguely remember there being some timing needed. Took me a bit to remember how to solve it.

Devilish 2 - Integrated Circuit Easy one. Nothing special other than teaching the player that you can build over a blocker I guess.

Devilish 3 - Bubble Bath Decent one, though I think there are a couple of levels with this title. Before I finally got the solution to work, I incorrectly kept doing this the other way, where I had one dig the right side at the top, while the other climber builds to get over the other side and dig that down. It would had worked but unfortunately it doesn't get you high enough because you don't build a full length bridge going to the right from the bottom with the second builder on top of the first one. So, it appears that one needs to do both diggers on the right side at the top instead. In any case, the level does teach players that you can get pretty high up by widening the shaft you build up by digging away the walls.

Devilish 4 - Lake Shore Paradise This was more annoying than I remembered it, though it seems that I made things harder than they needed to be. I just couldn't figure out what to do with the spare digger. As a result, I kept needing to readjust the positions of the diggers and when to start bashing. So, it can be fiddly if you let it be, but the timing is still difficult here.

Devilish 5 - Brick-A-Brack Hmm, not sure if this is a backroute considering the leftover skills I have. This was a lot easier than I remembered. I could had sworn the miner/builder combo is needed here, but I didn't have to do that at all in this level. I might even be remembering wrong about the combo being required.

Devilish 6 - In the Heart of the Pyramid Excellent level! I really like the part with bombing the faller to stop the digger and then the surviving climber does the rest of the work for the crowd. Then just a bomber to release them.

Devilish 7 - Steampunk Another easy one as long as you use the last Lemming to do the work.

Devilish 8 - Stocked Lemmings Got to love these 1-of-everything levels in just the classic skills. This one is great too! I really like how all the skills are used on this level to make for a really great solution. Especially that blocker to contain the crowd and then mining to release him and to make the fall survivable.

Devilish 9 - The Gravity Zero Nice somewhat easy puzzle, with the only hard part being to assign the floaters in such a way so that the others bunch up and only 1 die per trap. The timing for the basher to finish is a lot tighter than I remembered, though.

Devilish 10 - The Eighth Wonder of the World I like the trick of bombing the blocker and the others free from below with the worker climber, but this was more frustrating than it needed to be, as I needed to adjust the position of the blocker and when to start building with the digger several times before I finally got it to work and no one splatted from the fall or went out the wrong way. Then again, I think the fiddliness was all from how I placed the blocker. Even then, great level!

Devilish 11 - Across the Blizzard Way too easy!

Devilish 12 - It's a Ruin World Another great level where I really like how the solution all comes together. Mining to delay the others to give the worker enough time to build over the trap and the gaps. My mistake before was mining through the wooden pillar instead of bashing. The former causes the builder to turn around and therefore some will fall into the water.

Devilish 13 - Art of Mining Repeat of Plain 1, but here players must discover that it's possible to cancel a miner with one going in the other direction.

edit: Ah, no, it's not exactly required, as you can still finish on time without it, but time will be much tighter as a result.

Devilish 14 - Chernobyl Survivors Somewhat difficult and a bit harder than I remembered, but a pretty decent one. Repeat of a level earlier in the rank, Devilish 3. The hardest was figuring out how to get up to the exit with the very limited skills and with way less builders. It was a bit hard to release the crowd at the right time in order to block and turn the climber around. I then gained more height with him by bombing him when he has climbed high enough.

Devilish 15 - Devil's Horns Another one that is a bit harder than it looks and harder than I remembered, though this isn't too bad as long as you do it correctly. My initial mistake was thinking a climber needed to turn around to release the others with a miner, but the problem here is that the climber will splat after climbing the pole on the far left. Instead, the crowd can simply release themselves with a basher.

Devilish 16 - Lems Play Hide and Seek Another nice level that involves bombing from below to release a blocker that is in place above the basher. I really like this delay to give the worker enough time to build the long bridge to the exit.

Devilish 17 - Maze in a Clepsydra Ah, yea now I remember why this can be frustrating, though quite honestly I vaguely remember this level. You just need to play around with the timing and positioning of the skills in order to make the timing correct to cancel the miner going to the right.

Devilish 18 - It's an Evil Symphony ! Somewhat difficult and confusing, but it wasn't as bad as I thought, though that might be because my solution is a backroute due to the leftover skills Also I must say that's visually deceptive with what's going on with the far right exit, as I thought a digger was needed to get down to it, when in fact there is a very narrow open path to it already. I honestly don't remember that from Lemmini at all, and so that would be Dodochacalo's doing, not Icho's, as the latter simply kept the layout the way the former has it.

Devilish 19 - Poor Scapegoat ! Nice level with workers going a different route while the crowd is delayed with the terrain from above to give the builders enough time to make the path.

Devilish 20 - Stratum Much harder than I remembered, though that is likely because of the pickup skills here. Vaguely remember this level too. Not sure if this is intended.

Devilish 21 - Lem Pipe Another one that is harder than it looks despite the somewhat generous save requirement. You still have to be quick to save the others before you lose too many. Being one pixel off with only a builder left even when all bridges have been stretched is evil, I must say! Though, I later tried another way which also works but you end up losing more Lemmings this way.

Devilish 22 - One-Way Traffic I definitely remember this one, and this totally just reminded me of Armani's R3 in the current LDC (#29) but the latter's is far harder and the one I described as "Tailor-made for blockers" on crack Dodochacalo's level is far easier.

Devilish 23 - They're the Best Among the Best I honestly don't remember this level. Nothing special here other than you can't do all the building from the left and instead will need to do it from the right.

Devilish 24 - Staircase to the Bottom Nothing too special here either other than you need to block on a builder staircase so that you can free him later. Looks like I could had finished with a builder and digger to spare had I blocked on the first Lemming's bridge instead

Devilish 25 - The Way to Go Up I think this might be the only level that has changed from the Lemmini version if I'm not mistaken. I think it's simply from the Lemmini version is unfixable here for NL. This is a great level teaching players that you can recycle the blocker for later on the same staircase again so everyone heads towards the exit, as you don't have a spare builder to patch up the staircase again.

Devilish 26 - The Triangular Prison This is a level that looks intimidating and difficult but it's really not that bad. The only hard part was releasing the climbers at the right time so that they overtake the basher and can climb to get to the upper right exit. I think this was the part I remember struggling with on Lemmini, so that's pretty much the thing that makes the level stand out.

Devilish 27 - Don't Choose Pretty much Mayhem 6 but with two entrances and a steel wall separating them. I definitely remember this being one of the harder levels of the pack. I think pretty much any solution requires the Dolly Dimple builder trick to isolate a worker, just not with building under an entrance.

Devilish 28 - Assault Course I honestly don't remember this level either. Didn't use the bomber and hence my solution is a save all

Devilish 29 - La France Ugh, repeated bomber spamming isn't exactly my favorite type of level. I certainly remember how annoying this is on Lemmini due to the bombers being timed, but well, I'll have to endure it again once I go through the Lemmini version again

Devilish 30 - Make the Big 8 Ah, this one definitely reminds me of Pieuw's "Nick of Time," which is also a rank finisher. The hard part is just knowing how to get a worker ahead to make the route, as well as how to delay the crowd long enough to give the worker the time he needs to finish the work before the others arrive. A really nice level to end the rank!         

Maso Rank Feedback

The hardest levels of the pack are here, as this is the final main rank. To be honest, I didn't struggle as long as I thought I would, even though it's been years since I last played the pack. There's definitely some standout gems here, though!

Spoiler

Maso 1 - Like a Ski Slope ! Another nice rank opener. My only critique here is the very precise miner placement. Also, I honestly don't remember using all builders to turn around on the Lemmini version, though once again I simply could be remembering things wrong.

Maso 2 - In the Lemming's Cold A bit harder than the previous level but still nothing too difficult. My solution is probably harder than it needs to be, especially as I chose a really pixel precise placement for the first miner so that the next Lemming barely avoids the trap trigger. Perhaps the spare miners I had could be used to make things easier Not sure.

Maso 3 - Half Stone, Half Metal Nice level. I especially like how the second climber needs to finish up the rest of the mining at the top first before mining the others free. Nice solution needing to go through the outside first before turning back towards the huge wall.

Maso 4 - I Am A.T. II Ok, I definitely didn't remember Dodochacalo having any I Am A.T type levels, let alone two in the pack. I don't know if I made the basher placements more precise than they needed to be, though.

Maso 5 - Mined the Step ! Ah, seems to be a recreation of Martin Zurlinden's level from Mazulems.

Maso 6 - A Kind of Camel Nice level, though wasn't there a similar level from Mazulems? I really like how there's two workers here.

Maso 7 - Twisting Road Another repeat, but this time building up like I did in the original is impossible. This version looks quite daunting but it's really not that hard, though it still might not be obvious how to get up to the exit even with the several miners and very limited builders in the skillset.

Maso 8 - A Z That Stands For Zemmings Ah, I'll never forget rtw's rant on this level, though it's definitely way more frustrating on Lemmini since there's no rewinding and one screw-up causes a complete restart. Even with NL's convenience features it can still be frustrating on the execution. The concept in the level is nice, but yea, I can sympathize with others who had similar frustrations with this one. I guess in a way this is Maso 5 but with builders instead of natural terrain to keep the miner going.

Maso 9 - Live From the Pentagon Getting down is certainly the hardest part. Other than that, it can also be difficult to determine when to release the crowd so you don't run out of time.

Maso 10 - Two in One Solution is easy, but executing it can also be very difficult. Luckily, you just need to adjust when to build for the Lemmings to hit their heads to turn around, as the optimal RR is pretty much already set for you and hence you don't need to worry about it. The multi-tasking is what bumps up the difficulty and therefore the level is worthy of the Maso ranking.

Maso 11 - A Hard Nut Level Ok, this was probably the hardest level for me in the entire pack. There were so many things I tried and kept coming up a skill short or I wouldn't be able to save the climber in the end. Also building to get back up the right side was frustrating. I'm very curious what's intended here. Something tells me that because of the arrows going in both directions that it's intended to bomb there. Here, I needed to rely on some really good timing so that I could get back up with just 1 builder. I probably spent a good hour or so on this level alone!

Maso 12 - Connect 4 Good and somewhat easy level. Back to the old bouncing a miner twice with two blockers but definitely easier due to the terrain!

Maso 13 - A Search for Treasure Looks quite intimidating but another level where I really like how the solution all comes together. It can all be figured out with some logic. My mistake was thinking that the far left ones needed to build to catch the ones from the right, when in fact it's just bashing to the left and the building to the left. Nice use of the digger to delay the one that got the builder pickup, but that was certainly the hardest to see how to use on this level.

Maso 14 - Windy Coast Another nice level where the start is the hardest but once you're successful in figuring out how to not lose anyone the rest is easy. It honestly didn't look like there's enough time to build and bash to be able to finish off the second gap before the others arrive while they are temporarily contained in the digger pit, but it's the only way to do the level without using up the other skills which are necessary elsewhere.

Maso 15 - Tunnel under Channel Another great level where the timing all works out when the miner and builder meet at the right time and one where again you don't need to worry about the RR because the default is a maxed out 99.

Maso 16 - Complete Autarky This one I kind of remember. Another great level, though honestly I don't remember doing what I did at the very end on Lemmini. I'll find out when I go through that version again. Other than the end part looking pretty hackish, this solution does seem intended

Maso 17 - The Crossing (Part III) Hmm, I wonder where the other two such levels are. I honestly can't recall right now. Anyway, I had to adjust the builder placements several times with the first climber and floater before it all works out. It doesn't matter if the floater turns around, but it's crucial the climber doesn't. Even if he doesn't go to his death after that, I'm not sure if there's enough time for him to make a return trip back to the left exit. So really, another level with a solution that isn't difficult but its execution is, especially with making sure the bridges cross and not either one getting interrupted midway.

Maso 18 - Take a Step Ahead ! Repeat of Devilish 2 but builders only this time. To compensate for the lack of a blocker, you have more builders available and also the Lemming count is less. It's not that much harder than the original, though you just need to know how to delay the others long enough to give the worker enough time to make the path to the exit.

Maso 19 - Quarry of Jewels I honestly didn't remember there being an extending a basher with builders level from Dodochacalo, but luckily there's some extras in case you need them to make the setup correct. There's a Fire level from PimoLems that requires this same trick, so you can really see the inspiration they got from one another for their separate packs.

Maso 20 - The Hatch I vaguely remember this one but it's a pretty good one and one of my favorites. You just need to realize that the work on the left side needs to be done first before crossing over to the right side with the floater to prepare the rest of the way. As a result, the digger needs to be placed precisely to allow him to climb over.

Maso 21 - Be the One ! Definitely a somewhat harder recreation of Havoc 2, as I couldn't remember how to solve this one for a while. Getting the others down is the hardest part IMO. Just like many levels with a lot of builders, don't be fooled, as they run out much faster than expected! Decent level.

Maso 22 - The Horizontal Barbarous Bars Ah, Pieuw has a similarly titled level in the Hurricane rank from his pack with more or less the same concept as this one. Not a hard one, just can be a bit hard on the execution since you need to place the bombers correctly to allow the bottom worker to connect to each floor with just one builder.

Maso 23 - The Motor Show Nice level which is definitely far more interesting than the original from the Plain rank. The hardest part is figuring out how to isolate a worker, but here you just need two separate two digger pits, the left one which needs one Lemming with the digger. I like how there are workers doing the path in separate parts of the level.

Maso 24 - Smash Your Button ! Way too repetitive for my liking and one in which it can get very frustrating since you need to place the diggers correctly or you won't get the worker to finish the tasks on time. As such, it's much harder to execute on Lemmini. In NL it's better, but it still gets annoying since you can really skip ahead here.

Maso 25 - I am A.T. III Miners version of this type of level with the time limit being a huge problem here as in contrast to the diggers and bashers the miner is the slowest of them. I'm sure I could had made the time less tight by maxing the RR sooner. The ripoffs of this type of level aren't necessarily my favorites TBH.

Maso 26 - Sharin' the Fuel Except for the part where I just delay a Lemming with a climber and I make the second Lemming joint build with the first one, this looks intended.

Maso 27 - The Spring Can be difficult but it's a pretty good one. I initially thought to release the crowd at a time so that one of the last non-climbers can do the digging and release the blockers on the right side, but I ran into the problem that he wouldn't be able to reach the exit later. Seems that you can simply just use the climber who did all the building to the exit to save the blockers too. For some reason I didn't think it would work, but it does, you just need to keep in mind that they can simply all climb out the right side to reach the exit. Care must be taken to how you do the digging, though.

Maso 28 - Imposing Block Ah, definitely not one of my favorites because of the repeated bombing and how very frustrating it is on Lemmini because you need to place all the diggers precisely. Seems that it's not that much better on NL, though luckily there's still rewinding/framestepping available.

Maso 29 - All Turns Around the Time Nice level and except the part where I use a builder to turn a climber around, this looks intended.

Maso 30 - Gliding in Labyrinth Zone The only level of the pack that has a NL skill due to how this is the closest you can get to reproducing the miner behavior on Lemmini where if you assign it at the very edge it will jump forward a pixel and therefore land on the other side instead of dropping in the pit with the others. Since all glitches in NL are eliminated, this is the best one can do to replicate it. Of course, one could avoid NL skills by simply giving a climber instead, but the solution wouldn't be as interesting and some changes would be needed in the next area after the first gap. A really nice level to finish off the main pack!     

Bonus Rank Feedback

Just 5 additional challenges after you finish the main pack. Out of these, Bonus 1 was the hardest one for me aside from Maso 11. Bonus 5 won't be spoiler tagged, since I think there's plenty who are familiar with the level as it comes from the Genesis/Megadrive port, but that one took me a while because I couldn't get the middle area to work out. Turns out I didn't do it correctly from some of the earlier parts. I definitely remember this one taking me a while when I first played the Genesis/Megadrive port on an emulator years ago! A much more worthy level to finish the Mayhem rank on IMO!

Spoiler

Bonus 1 - Pletorah's Temple Definitely much harder with it patched up, though I remember doing something very fiddly on Lemmini that was also frustrating to get it to work. It was really hard to figure out how to get just one Lemming to get the bomber pickups safely while just losing one to turn the others around. I do like the solution, especially with bombing a nearby Lemming to stop the climber who's mining, but I still needed to do a lot of tweaks to get the timing to all work out.

Bonus 2 - Only in the Footsteps of God Definitely better here since you can see which letter blocks are trapped and which are safe. The builders might seem like a lot, but I'm not sure if it's possible to have any spare.

Bonus 3 - Just my Pretty Remake I interestingly solved this one in only a few minutes, whereas the original Genesis/Megadrive level took me much longer but only because I couldn't get up the middle area with just one builder.

Bonus 4 - Desert of Molten Rocks Another builders only level, and while it looks confusing and intimidating it's really not that bad. The only wonky part is the builder where the flamethrower is, as I thought the builder himself would get burned and therefore wouldn't connect with the wall. In addition, I thought some of the ones who did turn around wouldn't make it to the exit on time, but I didn't realize that the wall is too high for them to get over if you place the builder like that so it looks like he would die to it but doesn't.

All rightie, I have now finished all of Icho's NL level pack conversions now that I have gone through DoveLems but on NL. This was definitely a nice trip down memory lane, even if I have forgotten a lot of the levels, as well as great coming back to easier levels again after a long time. The pack does get challenging near the very end, like most easy/medium packs do, but these hard levels are very satisfying to figure out, especially with them more patched up than they are on Lemmini.

Thanks for this conversion Icho, you did great here! Now let's see if I backrouted any of these and therefore a change/update is needed. I'm guessing maybe one or a few

[Pieuw]

Well done Kaywhyn! As always your feedback is super interesting to read and brings back lots of memories.

Maso 17 - The Crossing (Part III) Hmm, I wonder where the other two such levels are. I honestly can't recall right now.

I can answer this.
Two levels from Pimolems, Hugs & Kisses and Candelabrum, were originally called something like The Crossing and The Crossing part 2 respectively. Dodochacalo also made his version of the crossing