Recommendations for new players?

[Simon]

Hi,

prompted by Kieran's hello topic, we need a prominent topic for lurkers: How to get into Lemmings culture?

There is "For new users: How to play Lemmings on a modern PC, but it is too long, and doesn't list important engines first. Glance at its first section on Lemmix: This would be a good length for the entire topic. If stuff gets too detailed, link instead to a more detailed page.

We care about levels more than engines. Explain as short as possible how to get a pack running. What packs should we suggest? Let's keep this narrow, but cover both NL and Lix.

I'll put forward as #1 suggestion Icho's Lemmings Reunion. Reason: It's very high quality, and starts easy enough. Its release post explains how to download and install NL. It concentrates on the DOS L1 mechanics. Agree? It's unfair to single out one pack for "try this to get into custom levels", but listing all packs merely provokes the question what to play first.

#2/#3 suggestion should probably be the NL introduction pack, because that finally covers all the new features of NL that Icho's pack doesn't yet use. #3/#2 suggestion should be the Lix community pack, because I already push that as the flagship Lix pack.

Describe how to get L1 running in DOSBox? Or is that not as important as NL/Lix? Maybe only link to another topic that explains it in detail.

Level editing is central to the culture, almost everybody will want to dive in quickly. I want quick-and-dirty step-by-step instructions to create and play a trivial level. Everything else should be discoverable from within the editors.

I'll draft something in the next post. Please destroy with criticism.

-- Simon

[Simon]

Play levels!

Great custom level packs, and how to run them:

• Lemmings Reunion by IchoTolot, that topic explains how to set up NeoLemmix.
  
• Lix community pack, it's included in the main Lix download.
  
• NeoLemmix introduction pack by namida, get NeoLemmix and the introduction pack there.
  
• ...and many more custom levels on our level pack board.
  

NeoLemmix is a Lemmings clone without glitches and with many new features. It looks and feels like DOS Lemmings. Create your own content with its accompanying tools.

Lix is a Lemmings-like game with custom levels and graphics, a level editor, and networked multiplayer. It's free and open-source, for Windows, Linux, Mac, and other systems.

Most level packs are for NeoLemmix. Lix comes in second. SuperLemmini and Lemmini haven't seen many packs recently. Some old user levels require the exact DOS Lemmings mechanics, they need vanilla Lemmix or DOS Lemmings in DOSBox.

Create levels!

To create a level for NeoLemmix:

• Download the NeoLemmix level editor.
  
• Run the editor, select "File" -> "New level".
  
• Right-click into the empty space, select "Insert Terrain".
  
• Right-click into the empty space, select "Insert Object" to add hatches and exits.
  
• Look through the dialogs under the "View" menu to choose skills and other values.
  
• Select "Tools" -> "Play this level".
  

To create a level for Lix:

• Download Lix, it contains a level editor.
  
• Run Lix, go to Single Player, and select "New Level" near the bottom right.
  
• Select the tree button to insert terrain in the empty level.
  
• Select the hatch button and the exit button to insert those gadgets.
  
• Select the "Skills" and "Constants" buttons to choose skills and other values.
  
• Save, exit the editor, and play the level from the singleplayer browser.
  

Once you have a cool level, make a topic and share it on the forums.

-- Simon

[namida]

I would not begin the recommendation list with Lemmings Reunion. It is indeed an excellent pack, but not suitable at all for those who are new to custom levels.

From what I've seen of them (via demos, etc), Wafflem's packs are probably an excellent candidate for using as examples. They are comparable in difficulty to Orig and OhNo, not the kind of super-hard levels that myself, IchoTolot, Nepster etc tend to make these days. My older packs (specifically thinking of LPI, LPII and LPO here) are also likely suitable for this, and so will be GeoffLems once I finish updating it to work with newer NL versions.

[mobius]

yeah start with easy stuff. Starting with the difficult packs will most likely deter some people.

Start with the original game (or the redux pack which is currently in progress) then move on the custom packs.

[IchoTolot]

yeah start with easy stuff. Starting with the difficult packs will most likely deter some people.

Start with the original game (or the redux pack which is currently in progress) then move on the custom packs.

Easy stuff yes, but not the original games.

Nearly everyone who is joining here knows the original levels; some even by hard. So why advertising them the same old boring stuff? (That's mostly not even that good comapared to todays puzzles in my opinion)

Give them some recommendations for good, easier custom packs and even a few advanced difficulty ones for if they are feeling brave enough or want to know what can be possible.
I would not only mention easy packs as even newer players should also see the advanced challenges that await them. Who did not peak into the higher ratings back in the days?

You can maybe mention that there are the old games as well, but I would not put them at the top of the list.

For easier packs I personally would put Geofflems, LP1 and maybe even PimoLems on the list as this pack starts out slow as well. If Revenge of the Lemmings would get updated it would also be a perfect canidate. And maybe some day I find the time to convert DoveLems as well which would fit in perfectly here (reminding myself here that this needs to be done ).

[namida]

One issue with that selection is that it has no levels that make use of NeoLemmix features (except for one LPI level containing updrafts, Psycho 6).

This is why I suggest MobiLems II and/or Lemmings Plus Omega should also be on the list.

[Nepster]

Why is using the new NeoLemmix objects/skills a criterium for pack recommendations here? The purpose of this recommendation is to get new players started. So the main focus should lie on getting them to play some nice, accessible levels and get used to the NeoLemmix controls, not to showcase all the additional stuff one can encounter in NeoLemmix.

[namida]

Chances are - especially in the future when the introduction pack is included with NL itself - that people will also want to know of some easier packs that make use of these features. As such, I think there should be at least one such pack on the list. (In case I gave the wrong impression here, I am not suggesting that every suggested pack should use them; just that there should be at least one that does.)

[ccexplore]

Why is using the new NeoLemmix objects/skills a criterium for pack recommendations here? The purpose of this recommendation is to get new players started.

I sort of get where you're coming from, but it is a very odd view IMHO to relegate the all the NeoLemmix-specific stuff as "not for new players", as if they are some scary stuff to be tackled only if you dare. Sure, maybe they don't belong on the first few levels, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be introduced early.  It's not like original Lemmings wait until Mayhem to introduce some totally new game element that has never been featured earlier.  Or imagine if one-way walls weren't introduced until Taxing.

[Simon]

Awesome feedback.

NL is planned to ship with intro pack: Perfect. I want to explain the bare minimum to get started with user packs. The list can then become (download only NL and play, then download this one or two extra packs and play, then browse the pack forum). I'll change the list as soon as you ship NL with the intro pack.

Instead of L1, I'd like to show what we do on Lemmings Forums, and how to become a part of this culture. Redux wouldn't showcase excellent user levels either. But it's OK to have a link below the userpack list on how to run Lemmix-L1 or Redux.

Reunion is too hard even early on? I'm open for something else as #1, but it must look beautifully. Ideally, its release topic/webpage explains how to run it in NL, otherwise I'll have to describe it. I have no preference for/against NL-exclusive features anymore, Nepster and ccx have convincing arguments.

#1 one of LP1, LPO, Pimolems, Geofflems, Mobilems2. Which looks most stunning?
#2 Reunion
#3 Lix community pack

-- Simon

[Proxima]

I played the first rank of Reunion today, and in my opinion it's a perfect introduction for new players. It begins with single-skill levels so the player can get familiar with all the skills even if they've never played Lemmings; and the difficulty builds up smoothly, with worker lemming levels gradually increasing in complexity, followed by a few simple puzzles. Non-obvious "tricks" such as the builder wall get introduction levels so the player is encouraged to discover the tricks without having to be spoonfed.

That said, there is an abrupt jump when starting rank 2. The very first level requires a non-obvious trick (RR to bypass traps) that hasn't been previously introduced and has a very demanding time limit, of the "release the crowd at the exact moment" type, when the first rank had no time limits at all.

[Nepster]

Here are some thoughts on the packs for choice #1:
- LP1: Very gentle difficulty curve at the beginning, but I fear that a self-solving level as first level might not really represent the current culture well. Sorry to say, but the visuals are not a strong point of LP1.
- LPO: This is only a good starting pack, if you already know the original lemmings game. Only the new skills are introduced at the beginning.
- PimoLems: Again this does not introduce the skills properly. Level 2 is already a level with 6 hatches, 100% save requirement and a very restrictive skill set.
- MobiLems2: This is even worse than PimoLems: The very first level requires placing blockers and freeing them again by assigning walkers. The skillset is pretty restrictive, too. I really fear that new players will already be stumped by this first level.
- GeoffLems: As LP1 this has a very gentle difficulty curve with many levels introducing skills at the beginning (although not as pure as the L1 intro levels). In general the levels look nicer than the LP1 ones. Problem is, that this pack hasn't updated to the latest NL version yet.
PS: Just to be sure: I don't say that any of these packs are bad, just that some may not be a good choice for someone not having played lemmings before.

Why is using the new NeoLemmix objects/skills a criterium for pack recommendations here? The purpose of this recommendation is to get new players started.

I sort of get where you're coming from, but it is a very odd view IMHO to relegate the all the NeoLemmix-specific stuff as "not for new players", as if they are some scary stuff to be tackled only if you dare. Sure, maybe they don't belong on the first few levels, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be introduced early.  It's not like original Lemmings wait until Mayhem to introduce some totally new game element that has never been featured earlier.  Or imagine if one-way walls weren't introduced until Taxing.

I only wanted to ensure that we don't ignore packs just for the reason that they don't make use of new NL features.
As a side remark: Your last comparison doesn't make sense. Instead of introducing OWWs in Taxing, it is more like introducing the new Tribes skills in L2. I agree that every pack using new features should introduce them early, but there is no harm in not introducing what you don't need or starting NL by playing a pack that ignores some/all new objects/skills of NL.

[Simon]

I'm targeting forum lurkers and recent joiners. They have played L1 and ONML and are familiar with the fundamentals. We aren't teaching Lemmings, we are reeling encouraging Lemmings players into forum culture. Imagine you'd have to suggest one pack to Kieran. :-) Maybe Kieran is already at the stronger end of the target spectrum with his puzzle gaming interest.

Sorry for not making that audience clear in the first post.

The first two-thirds of Reunion fit this bill; I fully agree with Proxima's judgement how Reunion starts very easy, then ramps up fast. If you have played L1 and ONML, you will solve middle-Reunion levels. You don't have to solve everything.

Nepster suggests LPO as a good #1 as long as you've played L1 and ONML. Would you consider that a better showcase of forum culture than Reunion? That would make:

#1 LPO,
#2/#3 Reunion,
#3/#2 Lix community.

Maybe special recommendation #4 Geofflems or a Wafflem pack for Lemmings-nonplayers, even though we aren't targeting nonplayers primarily. Sounds much more spiritful than recommending L1, which most people would find by googling Lemmings anyway.

I want to push one acknowledged pack to make a good first impression and show how user packs work. Then we point to the level pack forum for the full list. The pack forum is important: NepsterL* is great, but doesn't feel as representative of LF culture to make it into the topic. It's OK to change the #1 later when new packs get released.

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

I only wanted to ensure that we don't ignore packs just for the reason that they don't make use of new NL features.

Fair enough.  No pack will be "perfect" (hence I expect multiple good suggestions), and while it makes a lot of sense to ease players into the newer stuff in the game engines (especially if we are targeting lurkers who probably already knew the existing Lemmings 1 skills by heart), I concede there is nothing wrong per se with suggesting packs that only use the Lemmings 1 features, as long as players are aware of that.  They can make their own choice as to whether and when to try out the newer features in other levels.  So maybe it's reasonable to consider that just at least one suggested pack should cover new features, but maybe it's okay to suggest some other packs that never bother with the new features.  It's just that even packs that do cover new features likely still contain some levels that only use the old features.

As a side remark: Your last comparison doesn't make sense. Instead of introducing OWWs in Taxing, it is more like introducing the new Tribes skills in L2.

Only due to the history of the game does it even really make sense to talk about such a separation.  How is, say, a platformer so much different from a builder that the latter should get preferential treatment over the former?  For a player totally new to Lemmings, they are just two equally different and new skills.  For an existing player who likely knows just the Lemmings 1 features, getting introduced to the newer features would arguably be more helpful, and ultimately is kind of an inevitable task they should get around to anyway sooner or later, if they intend to try out a wider variety of levels designed for the given game engine.  But yes, it should be a choice for people to start off with something that has more guaranteed familiarity if one so chooses.

And L2 may not be a very good example anyway.  It has much more of a tendency to introduce one-off things that may be seen in a level or two and then never again, more gimmicks if you will.  Perhaps some things in NeoLemmix are kind of like that, but I believe there're still a lot that are not so one-off.

[namida]

- GeoffLems: As LP1 this has a very gentle difficulty curve with many levels introducing skills at the beginning (although not as pure as the L1 intro levels). In general the levels look nicer than the LP1 ones. Problem is, that this pack hasn't updated to the latest NL version yet.

Geoffster doesn't seem to be active on the forums anymore, but I'm working on getting the pack updated to the newer versions of NL. I'm targetting V10.13 rather than V10.12 with this, but at any rate V10.13 will most likely be ready before my upgrade of GeoffLems is.