[SUG] acheivement flags

[mobius]

One reason I liked the secret level triggers was they encouraged you to reach a particular spot in the level. How about using the flags (previously functioning for 2 player) to serve as a talisman achievement. It's pretty simple; when a lemming walks over the flag; nothing in the level itself happens but a talisman is achieved [and the level must still be solved?]

[namida]

Can implement this if there's enough interest.

[Simon]

If you do this, do not repurpose decoration. Make a fresh gadget, ideally the talisman sprite iteslf.

-- Simon

[GigaLem]

I wouldn't mind this feature, it could look like a smaller exit that'll raise a flag once a lemming enters
I have another idea for this that'll use a similar to what I said above, but its combined with unlock switches, for those interested i'll another topic if asked

[Nepster]

Instead of using talismans, why not create a repeat of the level that moves the exit to the talisman-flag position and has a save requirement of 1? If you want to enforce that the level must still be solved, this can be enforced in two ways in the repeated level:
- Put an unlock button at the flag's position, replace the exit by a locked exit (and keep it's original position).
- Put a cloner pickup-skill at the flag's position and raise the save requirement by 1.

One thing I noticed is, that there have been almost no streams with the goal to achieve talismans, but lots of streams to solve level packs. This tells me:
- If a level designer really wants other players to try an alternative version of the level, it is far better to add a new level that enforces the alternative solution, instead of adding a talisman.
- Existing talismans should not by any means make it harder to play the basic version of the level or have any chance to confuse players. (Currently this is done perfectly, with talismans giving no visual clues in the level that they exist.)

If you do this, do not repurpose decoration. Make a fresh gadget, ideally the talisman sprite iteslf.

Totally agree here, because we don't want players to spend hours getting to various decoration flags in a level that was made before this feature was introduced.

... it could look like a smaller exit that'll raise a flag once a lemming enters.

Such a design has a huge potential to confuse players, who might think this is just an alternative design of a real exit.
(And yes, we have object markers, but they are only displayed in clear physics mode and secondly a player may feel secure in their knowledge that the smaller exit actually is an exit and not double-check this.)

[Proxima]

- If a level designer really wants other players to try an alternative version of the level, it is far better to add a new level that enforces the alternative solution, instead of adding a talisman.

That's kind of the point. The purpose of talismans is to add a further, optional challenge beyond solving the level. The fact that talismans exist at all, and continue to be used, shows that designers like to have the option of adding an extra layer of unrequired challenge.

One thing I noticed is, that there have been almost no streams with the goal to achieve talismans, but lots of streams to solve level packs.

Your sample size is minuscule. Nevertheless, Flopsy has attempted the talismans in LPI, and expressed interest in going back to attempt the talismans in other LP packs after he finishes the normal solutions. I think he and IchoTolot are the only ones who've even come close to completing the packs on video. My experience from watching DROD LPs -- a larger but still pretty small sample size -- is that players often play through a hold (levelset) with normal solutions first, attempt challenges along the way if they look reasonably approachable, and usually end up leaving some and going back to complete them at the end of a playthrough.

Existing talismans should not by any means make it harder to play the basic version of the level or have any chance to confuse players. (Currently this is done perfectly, with talismans giving no visual clues in the level that they exist.)

This is not perfect -- at the moment, checking the talismans requires exiting normal play and going to a separate menu, then navigating back to resume play. DROD has a similar list of challenges for each hold, but also has scrolls in the rooms themselves that tell you what the challenges are. The challenge interface was added in The Second Sky (2014), and since then, the only complaint about it has been that sometimes you don't know whether a scroll will be a challenge or just flavour text. Absolutely no-one has said that having information about the challenges is confusing and that they would like them to be removed.

[Colorful Arty]

I'm in support of this

[namida]

Existing talismans should not by any means make it harder to play the basic version of the level or have any chance to confuse players. (Currently this is done perfectly, with talismans giving no visual clues in the level that they exist.)

This is not perfect -- at the moment, checking the talismans requires exiting normal play and going to a separate menu, then navigating back to resume play. DROD has a similar list of challenges for each hold, but also has scrolls in the rooms themselves that tell you what the challenges are. The challenge interface was added in The Second Sky (2014), and since then, the only complaint about it has been that sometimes you don't know whether a scroll will be a challenge or just flavour text. Absolutely no-one has said that having information about the challenges is confusing and that they would like them to be removed.

This is a seperate issue, and one I intend to do something about eventually.

[mobius]

If you do this, do not repurpose decoration. Make a fresh gadget, ideally the talisman sprite iteslf.

-- Simon

This is my opinion but I've rarely liked when the flags are used for "decoration". I'm sure they're are a couple of levels that use them to nice effect but what comes to mind immediately is fish the killer's levels.
A designer can use them for whatever they want obviously, but their original purpose wasn't decoration and a flag usually means it's marking something.