[SUGG.][MECHANIC]Object or skill that removes permanant skills

[WillLem]

You might find yourself wanting Floaters to solve one splat-height drop, but not all the others in the level. After all, that's one of the main reasons why the Slider is also being discussed as a potential non-permanent skill, because people generally like the idea of a non-permanent Floater.

Yes, absolutely - this is another good reason: if the Slider gets decided as the 20th skill, it becomes even more useful and relevant alongside the presence of a permanent-skill-removal object.

That said, even if a different skill gets decided upon, I'm still very much in favour of permanent-skill-remover. Or, a "Lemming-resetter": removes all permanent skills, rescues zombies and transforms neutral into regulars.

[GigaLem]

considering this topic got bumped, the idea of the object was called something like
"Converter" and "Remover"
and I was thinking there would be additional effect for each that'll be for non permanents
The "Skill Remover" could also double as Zombifier or Neutralizer turning a lemming into a Zombie or Neutral
And the "Skill Converter" Could revive zombies into normal lemmings or athletes or turn neutrals into normal lemmings or athletes

[Proxima]

I take it the "skill converter" gives any lemming that passes through a specified permanent skill? That could have some uses, but I think it would be more complexity for comparatively little utility. If you want to force the player to send lemmings to point X to receive a useful permanent skill, you can put a pick-up skill there. If you want it to be detrimental, you could use an unlock button that can only be reached with a permanent skill.

The skill remover could, as WillLem suggested, also convert neutrals/zombies to normal lemmings. I'm fairly neutral as to whether that's a good idea, but I can see some puzzle potential in requiring active lemmings to divert zombies/neutrals towards a skill remover. (Then again, we can already have puzzles where active lemmings have to divert zombies towards a trap, or neutrals towards an exit.)

The other way round, though -- absolutely not. All the interesting puzzle potential in the skill remover depends on the lemming remaining active. Conversely, if you are going to have an object that turns a lemming into a zombie, then it's lethal and the player has to avoid it -- so why bother giving it a secondary effect at all?

[WillLem]

The "Skill Remover" could also double as Zombifier or Neutralizer turning a lemming into a Zombie or Neutral
And the "Skill Converter" Could revive zombies into normal lemmings or athletes or turn neutrals into normal lemmings or athletes

I'm not sure that the Skill Remover should make the lemmings zombies or neutrals - it just becomes another trap to be avoided then, rather than having a potentially positive benefit for levels where you might want the permanent skill to be removed.

I do like the idea of an object that applies skills to any lemming that passes through, though - maybe this could be a separate idea altogether.

I take it the "skill converter" gives any lemming that passes through a specified permanent skill... If you want to force the player to send lemmings to point X to receive a useful permanent skill, you can put a pick-up skill there.

You could, but an object that applied skills to any lemmings passing through would, in effect, be like a second exit that all lemmings must pass through first. It's more difficult to get a whole crowd somewhere than one pioneer lem, so I can see it being a fairly good standalone object.

Also, there's potential for it to apply a number of skills, not just one. And - it automatically applies the skills to all the lems, reducing the need to clickety click on all those that need said skills.

I can see potential for this idea, definitely.

As for the Remover/Re-setter: I do think this should be to remove permanent skills, and cancel zombies/neutrals so they become normal again. I agree with Proxima that an object that makes regulars become zombies/neutrals would, effectively, just be another trap to be avoided and thus wouldn't have much use.

[Strato Incendus]

You could, but an object that applied skills to any lemmings passing through would, in effect, be like a second exit that all lemmings must pass through first. It's more difficult to get a whole crowd somewhere than one pioneer lem, so I can see it being a fairly good standalone object.

Also, there's potential for it to apply a number of skills, not just one. And - it automatically applies the skills to all the lems, reducing the need to clickety click on all those that need said skills.

Good point! Another thing that would get Lemmings closer to Star Wars: Pit Droids, which is the definition of a pure puzzle game.

Another comparable game would be Lego Alpha Team. Both of these require you to plan the entire route in advance of hitting "play", by placing arrows across a level that lead the characters / droids to the devices and objects they need to use in the right order to clear the path to the exit.

[Dullstar]

I don't dislike the idea of an object that can remove the zombie or neutral states, but I think it should be a separate object rather than part of the permanent skill remover. Also, if this purifier object were to be included, I'm not sure I see any reason to disallow an object that goes the other way. The neutral lemming creator would still allow the lemmings to be saved by other lemmings, while the zombie lemming creator would cause players to have a zombie hoard to deal with if they aren't careful (or if the level decides to force their hand - unlike just including zombies, the object could force players to have to determine if they will have to deal with a hoard or if the zombie creator can be bypassed).

[namida]

No further discussion about an object that adds / removes the Zombie or Neutral states in this topic.

I'm not rejecting the idea outright (in fact, I'm somewhat open to at least 3 of the 4 possibilities here, with "turn a zombie back to normal" being the one I'm not so keen on), but this topic is about an object that removes permanent skills, and adding Zombie / Neutral is getting a bit off-topic for that, so I am saying that if anyone wants to discuss such ideas, they need to open a seperate new topic for it.

I do realise why there might be thoughts that the objects should be one and the same, but I strongly disagree here: I think, for the purpose of clarity to the player, they need to be entirely different objects.

[WillLem]

No further discussion about an object that adds / removes the Zombie or Neutral states in this topic.

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I do realise why there might be thoughts that the objects should be one and the same, but I strongly disagree here: I think, for the purpose of clarity to the player, they need to be entirely different objects.

In that case, I just want to make it clear that I am all for the idea of a Permanent Skill remover as its own object. It's something that could be both a benefit and/or an obstacle depending on its placement in a level, which makes it particularly exciting from a design point of view.

[Strato Incendus]

Ah yeah, in case it hasn't become clear yet: I fully support this idea, too!

I'm just thinking about what we should call it, and how it would be implemented flavour-wise.

We used to refer to this as "The Thief", but that was more appropriate for a skill, not an object. Also, permanent skills don't really seem to relate to anything the lemming owns - aside maybe from the parachute for the Floater / Glider - but more something the lemmings knows.

So what would this object look like? A hammer that hits the lemming over the head and makes him forget everything he knew before?

A device for transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) that can (albeit just temporarily in real life) disable certain brain areas?