Revenge of the Lemmings 3.0

[Wafflem]

I've played through Revenge of the Lemmings a couple of times. Note that I have not beaten all the levels, but I feel I can notice when a hard level is in an easy rank. Here are my thoughts on what levels should be changed:

Picnic

I'm wondering if we should remove the skill tutorial levels 1-9 and replace those with just simple X-of-everything levels. I really feel they are unnecessary especially since the people who play this pack are most likely those who have already have had prior experience to Orig Lemmings. Plus, there are so many more great levels out there that really have not been used yet.

If we do this, then "In the swamp..." can be moved to one of the earlier levels. In the Countree will be in late-Picnic.

The only tutorial level worth keeping is Picnic 10 "Arrow Keys Will Help You Here!" as it uses the digger crowd control trick and makes great use of directional select.

Picnic 15 "Gotta Save 'Em All!" should be moved to late-Picnic, or probably even Hootenanny. With a 99 release rate, and the requirement to save all lemmings, this level really does not belong in mid-Picnic, especially when many of the levels following it are much easier.

Hootenanny

Hootenanny 2 "Lemming In a Cone" strongly belongs in Devious. I feel this level is a huge step-up in difficulty and is harder than the later Hootenanny levels, and there is a trick used there that not many people know about.

Hootenanny 3 "Kung Fu Bashing" , Hootenanny 4 "Bat Country" and Hootenanny 6 "No Loitering" belong in later-Hootenanny.

Hootenanny 9 "Not as easy as it looks" should be in very-early Hootenanny, especially seeing as that it is tons easier than Lemming in a Cone.

Hootenanny 17 "The endless steps" is better in early-Hootenanny, especially seeing as that instant bombers make this one a lot easier.

Hootenanny 21 "Turn it around!" might work better in early-Hootenanny, it's a simple tutorial level teaching players the bridge-wall trick and showing that you only need three builders to make that wall.

Hootenanny 27 "Crossing Paths" should be moved to later-Devious. I myself found this to be way too hard for a Hootenanny level.

Hootenanny 31 "They just won't climb the wall" should be moved to mid-to-late Hootenanny.

Hootenanny 34 "Lem ramp scam" may work in late-Devious.

Devious

Devious 2 "Ball Pit", Devious 4 "Crossing the Chasm", Devious 6 "Inside the Pyramid", Devious 10 "Cliffhanger" and Devious 14 "The Windmill" might be better in Hootenanny.

Devious 24 "Subterranean", I have a feeling that it might work better in Frenzy. I haven't beaten it yet though.

Devious 25 "Builderless work" might work better as early-Devious.

Frenzy

Frenzy 10 "Dilemma" is too easy for Frenzy and should be moved to early-Devious, maybe even late-Hootenanny.

Frenzy 11 "Leap of Faith" might work as the first level of Frenzy instead.

Frenzy 26 "Take it Like a Lemming" should be switched with Armageddon 8 "The Lemmyrinth". The Lemmyrinth seriously does not belong in Armageddon.

Pain

Pain 26 "The Silent Circus" should be moved to Frenzy. Well, when mobius sent me the files, I saw that Pain 26 was already in Frenzy as Frenzy 26

Pain 30 "A Bid Farewell" ... hmm...should we change it back to the original title that Matthias Witt put (which was "Someone must help us!")?

Carnage

Carnage 12 "Honey I Shrunk the Levels" - the music should be changed to Lemmings 2 Classic. I don't think the music for this one would fit a level that uses Orig Lemmings levels. Besides, the Classic levels of Lemmings 2 also use the Pillar style, so the L2 music should fit better here.

Carnage 20 "Waltz in C Sharp Miner" - I'd like to go with Proxima's suggestion to use the Waltz song he suggested in the old ROTL topic.

Carnage 32 "Tier Drops"  As I have not beaten many of the Frenzy-Armageddon levels, Tier Drops might work in late-Frenzy.

Armageddon

Armageddon 8 "The Lemmyrinth" as I said does not belong in Armageddon at all. It shouid be in late-Devious to early-Frenzy.

Armageddon 16 "The Top Shelf" might work better in Frenzy or Pain. This level (aside from the Lemmyrinth) is the only one I've solved in Armageddon.

Armageddon 30 "Duality" - I feel the music from Stormy 17 "Leaving on the Edge" of PimoLems works a lot better here, the music IMO gives that final-level feel. Even if this were Armageddon 29 if From the Brink becomes Armageddon 30, the PimoLems music will still work.

We should give From the Brink a music that has the feel of a final level if we are to move this to Armageddon 30.

[Crane]

My choice in music for "Duality" was down to how beautiful the solution was, in my opinion.  This was back when it was Armageddon 29 though (and Armageddon 30 was "Oh No! Not Again!", which shared music with the very first level to indicate the game coming full circle).  Isn't the current selection of NeoLemmix' Frenzy music suitable as a final level track for "From the Brink"?

Levels I can think off-hand that I don't think are particularly good levels.  Nothing against its creators, but I personally don't like them:

- The Land of Nightmares (in its current form)
- Tribute to Benny Hill (this one is just annoying and tedious)
- Oh No! Not Again!

Ones I think should be kept above all others (once again, due to personal opinion):

- Betcha can't save just one!
- Mastermined
- A Break in the Pillar (this one is the perfect tease!)
- Builders' Cracks (an almost-pure Builder level that is genuinely difficult and intriguing)
- Duality (As beautiful as the solution is, I personally think this level works better as a penultimate level rather than the final level, although I can't give a solid reason why... just a feeling)
- From the Brink

Those are the ones that come to mind anyway.  I'm not at my home computer currently.

I agree with a music change for Waltz in C Sharp Miner, but I don't know offhand the track that you're suggesting - do you have a filename for it?  I recall that Proxima loved the standard Tetris theme for its easier version, Minesweeper Lemmings, but even I've started to dislike the "Tetris B" theme, I think because it's a bit too grating.

[Wafflem]

My choice in music for "Duality" was down to how beautiful the solution was, in my opinion.  This was back when it was Armageddon 29 though (and Armageddon 30 was "Oh No! Not Again!", which shared music with the very first level to indicate the game coming full circle).  Isn't the current select of NeoLemmix' Frenzy music suitable as a final level track for "From the Brink"?

That's a valid point. Admittedly, I have never beaten Duality, and if the solution fits the current music then that is fine.

You're right, From the Brink's music does have that final-level feel.

I agree with a music change for Waltz in C Sharp Miner, but I don't know offhand the track that you're suggesting - do you have a filename for it?  I recall that Proxima loved the standard Tetris theme for its easier version, Minesweeper Lemmings, but even I've started to dislike the "Tetris B" theme, I think because it's a bit too grating.

This post is where Proxima shares his music suggestion. I myself admittedly don't mind the Tetris B theme, but I don't mind it being changed either.

Suggestions for levels with the Tetris B music:
Hootenanny 10 "Lem Dunk" should use the same one as first heard in Picnic 3 "Road Block" (it's the Jaguar XJ220 game theme song, I think).
Pain 10 "Balancing Act" should use the same music as in Devious 10 "Cliffhanger" (also heard in Stormy 6 "A Breezy Breeze!" of PimoLems)

[mobius]

I like the idea of removing the tutorial levels; but I don't feel like adding any more X-of-everything levels. This would allow more room for regular levels. [And I think there's enough Fun levels

Nepster's one of the few people who gave any praise for Oh No, Not Again. Quite a few people strongly disliked this level, as of now I'll be removing it.

If From the Brink stays, I think it'll definitely be the final level. It's certainty the hardest.

I'm still unsure about how to handle the backroutes of Duality. Namida's solution is very close to Yawg's intended and forces that (which would be surprisingly easy) would remove a ton of other solutions. However numerous people have liked this level and found it quite difficult as-is. Plus Crane has achievements for it as-is. Not sure yet if this would be effected.

@Wafflem: just curious tell me or send replay for Top Shelf. I still very much plan to remove this one--it's too similar to another and there's no good way to remove the backroute.

@Crane: Tribute to Benny Hill, awww, I really enjoyed this one, although I admit it can be tedious; this could be fixed a little bit. I think this level is very unique. But if it doesn't get a lot of love, I'll consider removing it.


Note: I'll discuses achievements later; once we have this all straigthened out.

[Proxima]

If I'm thinking of the right level, Top Shelf is the same level as Bipolar Maniac in the Lix community set. That one only wants a single trick to solve, but it's a very hard trick to spot, and the level offers many plausible directions to go that don't lead anywhere. I remember, when Insane Steve first built the Lix version, spending ages on it without getting anywhere. I haven't played many of the top-tier levels so maybe it doesn't belong in Armaggedon, but I definitely wouldn't drop it down lower than Carnage.

Oh No, Not Again is notorious for being one of the hardest ever levels to solve -- even people like Nepster report having taken months over it. I haven't solved it myself, but I've certainly found it an interesting level to attempt, and don't see anything wrong with it, other than dependence on time limit (and considering that RotL includes a lot of older content, probably it still has a fair number of time-limited levels?) Sadly, because of time limit dependence we may have to remove it from the Lix pack (unless we can find a good way to fix it, which isn't necessarily impossible) so it would be sad to see it cut from RotL as well.

[GigaLem]

I dont mean to go off topic,but unless im missing an update, there needs to be a final level post message too

[Crane]

This is the great thing about Lemmings... everyone has different preferences to level types and the lists of best and worst levels are often very different if you ask different people.  For a minor example, I didn't think much of Herculems, if only because I had issues with timed bombers and positioning when I first played it on Lemmini, but almost everyone else feels it is an absolutely brilliant level.  Even with my own levels, I don't feel too strongly about "Lemming Cathodes" and "Sharing a Climber?" because they were the 3rd and 1st levels respectively I had ever designed from scratch, hence I was far less experienced, but these are considered quite good levels by the community, as evidenced by their inclusion in Revenge of the Lemmings.

And yes, some kind of ending screen would be nice, as currently it just takes you back to Picnic 1.

[Wafflem]

I'll post my Top Shelf replay when I get back home.

Another thing to consider - should we make it as far as to remove either all or just some easier repeats of harder levels and replace those with different levels? There are so many great levels out there that could have been used in this pack, especially in a pack of 210 levels. It appears that not a lot of people like repeats in packs, and many of the recent packs use very few to no repeats. Even Lemmings Redux avoids the idea of repeats.

I also still think we should consider a Bonus rank for levels we choose to remove, much like Pieuw's Extra rank in PimoLems and namida's Recycle Bin. It will be great bonus content for those who have completed the main game but want to play more levels, or a breather rank if people are currently tired out by the main game (e.g. Colorful Arty playing the Extra rank after completing the Stormy levels in his PimoLems video playthrough).

[mobius]

I like the Extra rank idea a lot. In that case; most or all of these levels I'm proposing to remove will be put in this extra rank [unless it goes over 30 but I highly doubt that].

also you're right that apparently the consensus is now that repeats are dumb, which honestly makes me sad; I really like the concept and use them at least a little in my own packs. But regardless; if that's the consensus then I'll consider removing some or all of the repeat/easy levels I made. Keep in mind part of the reason I added the new rank in the beginning was a lot of people complained that the first version got too difficult too quickly.

@GigaLem I never thought about a post message; didn't even know that was a thing... but good thought. Some else should write a congratulations message though, I have no ideas.

[Wafflem]

That's a very good point that a lot of people found the first version of ROTL too hard; even I myself found it difficult (most especially since the Final Countdown was Picnic 30!). There's a lot of easy levels out there though, so I can look through what Nepster and I have converted from Lemmix-to-NeoLemmix to see what we can put there.

Here is my replay for The Top Shelf. If my solution is intended, I would keep it and try to fix the backroute.

[Proxima]

also you're right that apparently the consensus is now that repeats are dumb, which honestly makes me sad; I really like the concept and use them at least a little in my own packs. But regardless; if that's the consensus then I'll consider removing some or all of the repeat/easy levels I made.

I don't think such a consensus exists. I think what you're seeing is that people who don't like X (for any value of X) are liable to be vocal about not liking X, whereas people who like X or are indifferent might not see the need to say anything.

Of course, there are special cases -- Lemmings Redux was mentioned. This is explicitly a collection of what we (as near to consensus as we can establish) consider the best levels of the original games. Except for the Genesis levels, all the repeats in the original Lemmings are n-of-each levels that were added when the developers realised there weren't enough easy levels to get the player started. We've kept a few of these, but mostly we'd rather give space to other interesting easy levels, such as the better levels of the PSP set.

I don't know what the situation is with Revenge of the Lemmings; the community has made a ton of levels, so maybe you could find easy levels that are better than the repeats you currently have. On the other hand, in general the better designers find it more interesting to work on harder levels, so you might not find that many easy levels of good quality.

[Simon]

apparently the consensus is now that repeats are dumb

I don't think such a consensus exists. I think what you're seeing is that people who don't like X (for any value of X) are liable to be vocal about not liking X, whereas people who like X or are indifferent might not see the need to say anything.

This. I have ranted against repeats in IRC. Except for Akseli popping in shortly, I haven't seen any support against repeats. There are several arguments on both sides.

Whoever wants to know details, they're welcome to start a dedicated level design thread.

-- Simon

[Crane]

I'm actually fine with repeat levels. It provides a brief trip down memory lane to when the levels were easier(!) and with some of the levels, the easy version offers no clues as to how the hard version plays out (i.e. Singularity -> Duality and Hunting Season -> Wish you had them?). I wouldn't want too many levels from Picnic removed. For one, I enjoyed Minesweeper Lemmings more than Waltz in C Sharp Miner.

[Proxima]

For one, I enjoyed Minesweeper Lemmings more than Waltz in C Sharp Miner.

That's an interesting example. The Cheapo original was made for a multi-rank level pack I never finished, and each rank was going to have one special level. There were repeats in the pack, but all the special levels were unique. The repeat came into existence when I remade this level for the Lix community set. We needed more easy levels, and I felt that Waltz, with its multiple hatches, would be a good candidate for a fun easy-repeat.

[Wafflem]

If people don't really want to remove repeats (that is why I suggested some, not all), I still think only the skill tutorial levels should be removed.

This would mean Picnic 1-9. I'm okay with tutorials that teach medium-to-advanced tricks, which is why I'm okay with keeping Picnic 10 "Arrow Keys Will Help You Here!" (again, assuming we don't remove all repeats), as it teaches two tricks - the directional select and the digger holding cells. I would however move that level to later-Picnic.

Picnic 6 is Play Bridge, the difference being that this version has 50 builders and is a left and right-facing entrance (i.e. lemmings come out facing right and left). If the skill tutorial levels are removed, this level will then have to be reverted to its original version, which belongs in Hootenanny (and should be switched with the Endless Steps as that level becomes tons easier with instant bombers).

"In the swamp" can then be placed in early-Picnic.