Revenge of the Lemmings 3.0

[mobius]

Since NeoLemmix has undergone some major changes since the last version was released; a lot of new things need to be considered before making another update to this level pack. Should I lock the old topic? I'd prefer discussion to go here since this version will be quite different; a ton of new people are here since last time, and quite a lot of things need to be addressed/argued since there are varying opinions on levels.
To make things easier (for me mostly); people can post their own here. In particular if a level of yours is in the pack and has known issues, post it. Also discussion regarding the order of levels/ secret levels/ and levels to be removed or added.

Also since physics changes have been made as well; there might be new issues that were not present before. Additional testing for this may be required.

Note: I have not yet familiarized myself with the new NeoLemmix. I will do that as soon as I can. I can't promise it will be immediately.

[namida]

Currently, it's being advised that all content be created for the stable version (V1.43n-F), which isn't too different from any version that supports NXPs. There'll probably be much larger concerns when the big update comes around, but that's still a while away - the needed changes to graphic sets, replays and physics are more or less done, but that's it.

[mobius]

to start off; these are the secret levels. It needs to be discussed what to do with them.

rank 1
picnic:
In the Swamp (Dragon'sLover)
In The Countree (MZ)
Edge of Oblivion (group)

rank2:
they just won't climb that wall
Leaky Building Syndrome
Dig This!
Lem Ramp Scam

rank3:
Mental Process (I.S.)
Bunker Hill (hubbart)

rank4:
Land of Nightmares (Proxima [has okayed removal])
Lemming Cliche (Ellischant)
Ball Bearing (Crane)

rank 5:
Fallout Boys (MZ)
Singular Squish (Clam)

rank6:
Case of Floating Dots (Gronkling)
Teir Drops (Crane)

rank7:
There's a method in the Madness (geoo)
I won't Say I'm in Lem (Dodo)
From the Brink (Clam)

---------

I'm in favor of removing the following:
In the Countree, Edge of Oblivion, Dig This!, Bunker Hill, Land of Nightmares, Fallout Boys, Singular Squish, Case of Floating Dots

ones I'm not sure whether I'm in favor or not:
Lemming Cliche, There's a method in the Madness, I won't Say I'm in Lem, From the Brink


Other Notes:

since at least one person has solved The Shaft (part 1) the intended way of part 2, missing the gimmick entirely I suggest either altering the first one so the second's solution isn't possible or removing it.

Feel free to mention other levels that you feel for one reason or another could be removed.

[Crane]

Here's my current selection of updated levels.  The update to Crystal Caves is to make the "4 Miners" talisman a bit fairer to achieve (the terrain on the rightmost trapdoor made it unfairly precise).

I've also made potential backroute fixes to "Clonic Inferno" and "A Bid Farewell", also attaching replays showcasing what I think is the intended solution for each.  I'm not sure if the latter opens a backroute though.

- Clonic Inferno - left walls are now steel.
- A Bid Farewell - extra terrain just to the right of the steel blocks, so lemmings will walk up it.

I can't be sure if the music tracks are correctly assigned.

NOTE: Nemesis still has a secret level trigger.

[Crane]

Regarding "From the Brink", I do like the level, but I for one have no clue how to complete it even after well over a year!  I will be so grateful if someone can enlighten me!

[bulletride]

I fixed a bunch of my levels and sent them to Wafflem a little while back, let me know if you need me to re-upload them here (I might give them another look over and re-upload them anyway).

I wouldn't mind if Almost Easy was removed from the pack and either replaced with a bonus level or one of my other levels.

As far as bonus levels go, I have not played most of them yet but In the Countree was a great level and I think it should stay in the game.

[Nepster]

EDIT: Read Simon's hint first, try "From the Brink" again and only if you are still making no progress read my spoilers. It is a MUCH bigger spoiler!

If the ROTL level "From the Brink" is pretty much the same as clam's level in the database, then try...

Big Spoilers

... placing two blockers above each other. The lower blocker should be one of the first lemmings that spawned, while the upper lemming should be one of the last lemmings appearing. Then nuke and see what happens, especially if there happens to be an exit below.

Warning: The level in the database will not be solvable in the experimental version of NeoLemmix without adding two floaters to the skill set.

[Simon]

Make an extra directory rank, dump everything in it. Then you aren't pressed to remove anything, unless the level is bad by itself.

Hint for From the Brink

This level comes from vanilla Lemmix. You have more skills than the numbers in the panel imply.

-- Simon

[Wafflem]

Make an extra directory rank, dump everything in it. Then you aren't pressed to remove anything, unless the level is bad by itself.

Agreed, this is something that I myself am thinking should be added.

möbius also posted some hints in the old Revenge of the Lemmings topic. I myself haven't beaten it.

I already sent BulletRide's fixes to möbius. I also agree that In The Countree should not be removed, it's a unique one-worker-lemming level in the sense that you have no bashers and still proves a challenge. Plus, can't not love the scenery!

Detailed comments will come in a future post!

[Crane]

I finally got it thanks to Simon's hint.  Not sure why I didn't consider that before, but timing is everything.  But now that I know the solution... wow!  That level is absolutely genius, but I can see why it's a secret level, and also why "From the Brink" is such a brilliant name for it too.  Please don't remove it!!

I'm not sure how I missed möbius' clues.  I would have gotten it too from reading the first few of those.  I've saved a replay, but I'm not sure if I should post it yet because I don't want to spoil it for everyone, even if people read Nepster's spoiler.

Spoiler

An updated version will need 2 floaters because "direct drop" is disabled as of the latest version of NeoLemmix, but I believe the original version of the level had these in the toolset anyway, and it won't give away the solution.

I forgot to fix one of my levels, which namida backrouted thanks to some precise miner use.  Here is my updated version of "Prize Catch", with a slightly thicker barrier and wider metal floor.

[Crane]

Personally I'd keep "The Shaft" (part 1), as it teaches players to look more carefully or otherwise make it hard on themselves.  Plus there is a "Save 100%" talisman for that level, which isn't possible with part 2, and that should clue in any kind of achievement hunter (or at least make them look around).

ADDITIONAL: Here's an update to the Picnic level "Song of the Lemming", which reintroduces one of the one-way walls that appears in "Perfect Harmony", just so it's not painfully easy as namida demonstrated.

Regarding the "Through Fire and Flames: No Builders" talisman, I recommend adding "Save 100%" to it as well.  It was my intention when I originally suggested it, but forgot to be explicit.  It doesn't increase the difficulty that much really.

[mobius]

The total number of levels in the pack was currently somewhere around 210. IMO this is too many and I think I should've cut back before it's release but it's too late now for that.  But anyways, I'm not in favor of adding any more. If there's enough levels to add, I'd rather put that in a new pack altogether.

as of now the levels to be removed are:
In the swamp
Edge of Oblivion
Dig This!
Bunker Hill
Singular Squish
Case of Floating Dots
Almost Easy


Ones I'm still not sure about:

Fallout Boys

Lemming Cliche and Method in the Madness I mention because they are rehashes from the original game. I'm okay with that but I'm curious about others opinions.

Mental Process; this idea is sort of similar to other levels we have and more tedious than them.
Leaky Building Syndrome [a tricky builder level with a pretty similar vain to Builder's Cracks]

I'll consider moving the exit in Land of Nightmares and keeping it [and making it visible]

[Crane]

I actually don't mind the large number of levels that Revenge of the Lemmings provides.  It keeps players busy for a long time and shows off the wide variety of designs that people have come up with, and shows it as a massive extension to the original games.

I don't mind rehashes of original levels personally - to be honest, the Fun levels are the most... fun with this because you can create some interesting new challenges and puzzles with them simply by limiting what tools you can use or by trying to save 100%, say.  Other times, when you need something simple like a one-way obstacle, then levels like "Keep your hair on, Mr. Lemming" are more than suitable for the task.

I think "In the swamp..." is okay for a secret level or even a regular level because it's a 1-lemming level, which are quite uncommon in the grand scheme of things.  I don't think much of "Edge of Oblivion" though.  It feels... unrefined or unfinished.  Not sure.  Plus it just boils down to a mammoth building exercise that the original Lemmings was infamous for.

"The Land of Nightmares" is just annoying in its current form.  I tried completing it myself without looking at the file in an editor, and gave up.  It turned out that I bashed right underneath it at one point as well.

I agree that Mental Process is somewhat tedious and sort of ruins the uniqueness of the Mario-themed level (although I believe a third one exists, "They just won't climb the wall").  Some secret levels really offer something unique or challenging though, and they are secret after all, so part of the fun is hunting them down.

[namida]

The reason for removing secret levels is because NeoLemmix itself will be dropping support for them in the future (experimental versions have already removed support). The same goes for all gimmicks, except for zombies (which will no longer be a gimmick as such, but rather, just another feature).

[Crane]

Oh I see.  I've been away for about a year and am well behind the times!  I guess "From the Brink" will now be Armageddon 30!