Revenge of the Lemmings 3.0

[mobius]

@Wafflem; that is the solution to Top Shelf good work. That level is very hard.

Spoiler

The backroute is to place the blocker directly under the entrance then have a lemming that comes out of the entrance later use the trick to remove him, which is only possible because of un-timed bombers. A fix is to put the entrance directly against the platform so the lemmings immediately start walking. This is an ugly fix imo. I'd still prefer this get placed in the extra rank.

I'll remove the main tutorials and maybe some of the repeats which aren't that popular. [and welcome some suggestions on new levels to add]

[Crane]

Wouldn't a better backroute patch to make the floor only a pixel thick around the trapdoor's vicinity?

[Proxima]

Or just reduce the number of lemmings.

[mobius]

excellent ideas! Nobody's had those until now .

Note: for anyone making changes to levels if you upload a level here please use the following format for titling the file: XXX level title here. XXX being three numbers used to identify the level's place. Example: 305 = third rank, fifth level.

I'm not sure about this no---I'm trying to find a better way to organize the levels. Just title them for now and don't bother with numbers if you want.

[mobius]

I've played through Revenge of the Lemmings a couple of times. Note that I have not beaten all the levels, but I feel I can notice when a hard level is in an easy rank. Here are my thoughts on what levels should be changed:

Hootenanny

Hootenanny 2 "Lemming In a Cone" strongly belongs in Devious. I feel this level is a huge step-up in difficulty and is harder than the later Hootenanny levels, and there is a trick used there that not many people know about.

Hootenanny 3 "Kung Fu Bashing" , Hootenanny 4 "Bat Country" and Hootenanny 6 "No Loitering" belong in later-Hootenanny.

Hootenanny 9 "Not as easy as it looks" should be in very-early Hootenanny, especially seeing as that it is tons easier than Lemming in a Cone.

Hootenanny 17 "The endless steps" is better in early-Hootenanny, especially seeing as that instant bombers make this one a lot easier.

Hootenanny 21 "Turn it around!" might work better in early-Hootenanny, it's a simple tutorial level teaching players the bridge-wall trick and showing that you only need three builders to make that wall.

Hootenanny 27 "Crossing Paths" should be moved to later-Devious. I myself found this to be way too hard for a Hootenanny level.

Hootenanny 31 "They just won't climb the wall" should be moved to mid-to-late Hootenanny.

Hootenanny 34 "Lem ramp scam" may work in late-Devious.

Devious

Devious 2 "Ball Pit", Devious 4 "Crossing the Chasm", Devious 6 "Inside the Pyramid", Devious 10 "Cliffhanger" and Devious 14 "The Windmill" might be better in Hootenanny.

Devious 24 "Subterranean", I have a feeling that it might work better in Frenzy. I haven't beaten it yet though.

Devious 25 "Builderless work" might work better as early-Devious.

Frenzy

Frenzy 10 "Dilemma" is too easy for Frenzy and should be moved to early-Devious, maybe even late-Hootenanny.

Frenzy 11 "Leap of Faith" might work as the first level of Frenzy instead.

Frenzy 26 "Take it Like a Lemming" should be switched with Armageddon 8 "The Lemmyrinth". The Lemmyrinth seriously does not belong in Armageddon.

Pain

Pain 26 "The Silent Circus" should be moved to Frenzy. Well, when mobius sent me the files, I saw that Pain 26 was already in Frenzy as Frenzy 26

Pain 30 "A Bid Farewell" ... hmm...should we change it back to the original title that Matthias Witt put (which was "Someone must help us!")?

Carnage

Carnage 12 "Honey I Shrunk the Levels" - the music should be changed to Lemmings 2 Classic. I don't think the music for this one would fit a level that uses Orig Lemmings levels. Besides, the Classic levels of Lemmings 2 also use the Pillar style, so the L2 music should fit better here.

Carnage 20 "Waltz in C Sharp Miner" - I'd like to go with Proxima's suggestion to use the Waltz song he suggested in the old ROTL topic.

Carnage 32 "Tier Drops"  As I have not beaten many of the Frenzy-Armageddon levels, Tier Drops might work in late-Frenzy.

Armageddon

Armageddon 8 "The Lemmyrinth" as I said does not belong in Armageddon at all. It shouid be in late-Devious to early-Frenzy.

Armageddon 16 "The Top Shelf" might work better in Frenzy or Pain. This level (aside from the Lemmyrinth) is the only one I've solved in Armageddon.

Armageddon 30 "Duality" - I feel the music from Stormy 17 "Leaving on the Edge" of PimoLems works a lot better here, the music IMO gives that final-level feel. Even if this were Armageddon 29 if From the Brink becomes Armageddon 30, the PimoLems music will still work.

We should give From the Brink a music that has the feel of a final level if we are to move this to Armageddon 30.

Did you beat "Lem Ramp Scam"? the only reason this is in Hootenanny is because it was a secret. As a regular level IMO it's more of a Pain or even Carnage level. This level is quite unique and I really like it btw.

Do we have the Lemmings 2 Classic music in this pack? I don't remember that being in.
I'll change the title back to Someone must help us!
I put Take it Like a Lemming in Carnage for now. I might put it higher but a lot of feedback has several of the Armageddon levels easier than they really are because of backroutes.

[Wafflem]

Here's Lem Ramp Scam; I had another replay but it turned out to be in another computer.

Not sure if this is the solution as I didn't use all the blockers.

I'm not sure why I said Devious, I was kind of rushing when I made those comments.

Regarding the L2 Classic, here is the attachment; it also comes with IchoTolot's Lemmini verison of Lemmings Reunion. I've also sent it to you by PM weeks ago.

[mobius]

oh shoot-- that is a huge backroute to Lem Ramp Scam [trust me the intended solution is way cooler! Not that your solution wasn't ingenious as well, but like I said; this level's pretty unique]

at the moment I have no idea how to fix this

I'm hoping Clam's already fixed many of these (pretty sure at least one other level by his got backrouted). I can check Clamlix which he updated far more recently than these.

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Everyone who has levels in this and had backroutes pretty much sent me the files to fix them already but in case you haven't; please consider if your levels have any serious problems now.

Now for the people who aren't around; I'll be going through the posts and namida's LP to look for the many backroutes I remember there being. I'll make a list here; anyone who can help fix them is welcome to try.

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I'm thinking of reverting FALL AND DIE to Clam's changes; 1. Because it's Clam's level so he should get a say, and 2. I think the comments that it was easier were made by people who had already solved the level so I think it's skewed. Others [Simon for one] who played the Lix version commented it was very difficult.

One level I sort of always wanted to add was Clam's "Switchback symmetry" but this level has a glitch RR that's lower than normal. I think this was necessary and I don't know if it's fixable/if Neolemmix would support this. I don't know if I'll invest any time to actually find a solution to this. I think Wafflem's idea is better to add some easer(ish) levels they found recently.

[Crane]

I've been playing through random levels here and there, looking for random backroutes, a possible talisman or an overlooked level.

One random thought that came up... I would like for the miner tutorial level "Ups and Downs" to remain, because completing it using only miners (which gives a bronze talisman) is actually pretty challenging, or is at least a test of precision in an otherwise easy rank.

[mobius]

renaming it to ROTL 3.0; imo a better title (3.0 is really only to indicate the version. 1 was the Lemmini version, 2 was the first NeoLemmix version. This will be the latest update (still for NeoLemmix))

I managed to work on a few levels over the weekend despite only having an old laptop without all my files.

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One random thought that came up... I would like for the miner tutorial level "Ups and Downs" to remain, because completing it using only miners (which gives a bronze talisman) is actually pretty challenging, or is at least a test of precision in an otherwise easy rank.

It would be odd to have 1 tutorial like level without the others. Unless there's other similar levels offering challenges. Or Keep all the tutorials or like-tutorial levels but making the challenges the actual solution. Maybe having that level (with just that challenge as the solution) would be good; albiet it might need to placed later.

[Crane]

...

One random thought that came up... I would like for the miner tutorial level "Ups and Downs" to remain, because completing it using only miners (which gives a bronze talisman) is actually pretty challenging, or is at least a test of precision in an otherwise easy rank.

It would be odd to have 1 tutorial like level without the others. Unless there's other similar levels offering challenges. Or Keep all the tutorials or like-tutorial levels but making the challenges the actual solution. Maybe having that level (with just that challenge as the solution) would be good; albiet it might need to placed later.

It's not a huge tutorial really, given you have floaters, blockers and builders as well, but not enough builders to finish the level with just them.  The only other tutorial level that has a talisman, I think, is "Play Bridge", which demands you save everyone and don't use bashers.

[mobius]

I made several changes upon people's request; mostly typos or title changes, and re-ordered some levels

A few backroute fixes to "Top Shelf" and Descent Decent" per ISteve's request though he warns this may open up an old backroute. No other ideas for now. (And I still need to test this actually)

Floodgates Open time limit has been fixed.

Altered part 1 of "the Shaft" so the hard solution isn't possible.

[Crane]

Seems fair to make the hard solution impossible, and easy enough as well (removing that vertical plank of wood).  I would argue that namida made it hard on himself by not properly looking at the entire level first, like roundthewheelrtw tends to do and also 'taught' in the Oh No! More Lemmings level "No Problemming".

Suggestion for the end text after Armageddon 30 (if it fits, while making less-than-subtle references to the rank name and what I hope will be the final level!):

After enduring a nightmarish journey and saving 76 lemmings From the Brink of Armageddon, you may now rest on your laurels in the knowledge that you are indeed a true master of Lemmings.  Congratulations!

For an additional challenge, be sure to collect all of the talismans to further prove your worth to the lemming deities.

Be sure to thank us at http://www.lemmingsforums.net, where you may also seek out more devious puzzles from the developers that brought you Revenge of the Lemmings.

[mobius]

that sounds pretty good. Good point in reminding people about the talisman.

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Just remembered that "Lem Ramp Scam" is very similar to another level. Since this is backrouted; I think I'll put this in the extra rank. No idea how to fix it anyway.

[Wafflem]

The Lemmyrinth should also go in the Extra rank. It's a very original concept, but not one that would work among the main ranks.

Alright, finally got some level suggestions to add so far:
2112 - Rhythm of Lem - a nice long level with lots of obstacles. Could work in Picnic.
ccexplore - Every Single One Counts! - this level was meant to demonstrate that you can make your own VGASPEC. However, it also functions like a regular level, and is very interesting because it has a lot of multitasking and you have to save 100%. This can go in the Extra Rank.
Chmera - The Great Migration '06 - perhaps this could be the very first Picnic level? Seems too easy and simple though, but I think it wouldn't hurt to start it simple. Also remove the '06 in the title.
Dullstar - The Ice Palace, The Waffle Express (was not inspired by my name! ), Attack of the Killer Toddlers - all of these were also suggested by Nepster in the NeoLemmix Community Pack. All three could work in Picnic. Attack of the Killer Todders especially teaches a trick.
Timfoxxy - One of Everything - an excellent and simple one-of-everything level. Place in Hootenanny.
Timballisto - Lemmings on the Roof - has a very clever and hidden solution. Place in Hootenanny.
TOG - Up and Around - this level is the type that teaches you that you don't always have to 100% a level, especially if the save requirement says so. Place in late-Picnic?
TOG - Roller Coaster - a good level that teaches the reverse miner trick. Place in early-Hootenanny.
TOG - Mind the Gap - a level with a very clever solution. Place in mid-Hootenanny.
Tumble Weed - Skill Your Lemmings - a good review of the eight traditional skills. This is different from a skill tutorial level. You already know how the traditional skills work, so no need for tutorials, but a review of how they work and when they should be used is different. A Picnic level.
Tumble Weed - Stairway - uses a lot of clever tricks, one of which is also used in Lemmings Plus I. Tumble Weed included this in his pack of best levels. This belongs in Devious.
Tumble Weed - Multiple Choice - haven't beaten this one, but Tumble Weed included this in his pack of best levels. It works in Armageddon possibly, and I feel Nepster's "Divide and Conquer" (Neutron Star 7) was inspired by this level.

For those who want to make any other suggestions to add, look through the Lemmix-to-NeoLemmix conversions.

I will go through more level packs and see which levels can be added.

[mobius]

thanks for zipping up all the levels here conveniently

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While I said I like repeats, I am open to removing some of the early-version repeats if other people would like to. If you feel there are better levels to include, verses some already currently in Picnic.

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I'll be completely re-creating Hotel in Hell (as necessary) If anybody wants to help you may.

I'm having trouble getting the special graphic levels to work again... I've put the graphic files in the right place... (I think, for Hotel in Hell for example; in the style folder under "Cheapo" + the vgaspec special file needed as well.) But the editor can't find it. When someone's on chat I'll try to get some help.

How do you get ccexplore's level to work? the vga spec won't show up. [All I see is entrances and the exit and water.