"Fencer" skill?

[namida]

I've floated this in discussions a few times, thought about it a lot, and come to the conclusion - if there's anything that's justified in being added as a 17th skill, it's a Fencer - I'm not sure where I got that name from (L2? Hamsters? Clones? Not really sure), but it would basically be a destructive skill that creates a tunnel at an upwards angle - essentially a miner, but in reverse.

What I'd like to discuss on this (and it may be a while - possibly including later than just at the big update - before it actually gets implemented, so there is plenty of time to discuss these things) is:

1. Do we want to (without considering what they may be) add any further skills at all? We don't want to end up like L2, but on the other hand, while some of the first 8 new skills might not be too useful *coughstackercough*, in future any new additions would be much less rushed - as can be seen from that this is the first time since V1.16n that I've proposed adding anything more.

2. Assuming we do want to leave open the possibility of more skills, is Fencer a good choice? Keep in mind that essentially, it would be like a miner that starts from the bottom instead of the top. However, this alone may be worthwhile because while we currently have horizontal, diagonal-down and vertical-down skills, we don't have any destructive skill that goes upwards (unless you count the bomber).

3. And finally, if we do implement it, how exactly should it work? For example - how many "slashes" can he take without moving upwards before he gives up, or should he be able to keep going (essentially acting like a basher) even without upwards movement, just as long as he destroys something and hasn't hit steel? Should we introduce one-way up arrows that are only destroyable by the fencer (and perhaps any future skill that also destroys in an upwards direction, though I don't see a very high likelihood of introducing any others)? Even the finer details of the masks - should the terrain removal be from bottom to top unlike other skills (which also gives Fencer another unique property compared to miner or basher, in that it can't be used to create staircases by interrupting mid-stroke)?

I want to stress again that this is not a gateway to suddenly exploding to L2-like quantities of skills. Like this one has been (and will continue to be, via your input now rather than just mostly my own thoughts), any additions will be carefully considered, and quite possibly even trialled before officially introducing them into the game; and I don't expect them to become a very regular thing - as I mentioned, this is the first new skill I've considered in a long time. I know I've repeated this point many times, but I feel it's important to do so, as I don't want a potentially useful skill to be rejected just because people are afraid it will open the gate to an influx of relatively useless ones like L2.

[bulletride]

I think an upwards miner would be really cool and fun . I don't think it should be limited strokes wise it should just keep going like a normal miner/basher would.

[namida]

I don't think it should be limited strokes wise it should just keep going like a normal miner/basher would.

Sorry, I think I didn't explain clearly here. In the event that he has destroyable terrain in front of him, he'd keep fencing, for sure. I was meaning in a situation where he has terrain in his destroyable zone, but can't actually move upwards (perhaps he's in a thin corridor with terrain above him that gets destroyed, but only a flat ground ahead of him, like in the attached image).

[bulletride]

Oh I understand now. I think that the fencer should have to stay on the ground so he would need to fence against a wall. If there was terrain above him we would slash once and then stop.

[namida]

If there was terrain above him we would slash once but then not move up.

Yeah, that's my thoughts too, but I also think there should be some degree of tolerance here - perhaps allow for him not moving up on the first slash as long as he removes some terrain that's level with him, or something. I'm not sure what the exact rule here should be.

[bulletride]

Yeah, that's my thoughts too, but I also think there should be some degree of tolerance here - perhaps allow for him not moving up on the first slash as long as he removes some terrain that's level with him, or something. I'm not sure what the exact rule here should be.

I think something along those lines would be needed to make it more forgiving to use the skill. If you had to use it the exact frame you are beside the wall it would be annoying to use.

[bsmith]

I see the potential with this idea, so I have no immediate objections to it.

A thought: If we do add a 'Fencer' lemming, will we also see a constructive counterpart - a 'Ramper' which builds a ramp going downhill (like an downward builder)?

[Nepster]

I am not sure that the fencer would be a great addition:

• L2 Tribes: If I counted correctly, 28 levels use a fencer. Out of them 23 would work equally well with bashers, 3 use the fencer to emulate a one-way-wall and 2 levels would require replacing a steel block (that is not necessary for removing otherwise possible solutions!) by destructible terrain. So L2 did absolutely nothing interesting at all with the fencer!
• The basher may step a few pixels up when steel is beneath him, so at least some of the use-cases for the fencer can already be simulated by basher+steel. Sure, it is always preferrable not to use this setup, but in my opinion a new skill should allow for new puzzles that are currently impossible. And upwards movement of bashers reduce the amount of such puzzles.
• We already have a skill that produces an upwards slope in the terrain: The miner. So the fencer would not create any new possibilties regarding terrain modifications. He would only allow to do the terrain modification from the other side. Again there are already many ways to get a miner in this position, thereby reducing the usefulness of the fencer.
• Even worse than that: Basher- and miner-staircases have pretty much the same functionality as a fencer. So unless we copy Lix and remove basher- and miner-staircases, the fencer has decidedly too much overlap with basher+miner in my opinion.

Sorry, but I see even more problems with the Ramper: What problem does he solve, that builders and platformers cannot solve? A Ramper requires assignments within one or two pixels in front of the gap, while all other skills can be assigned almost everywhere. Lots of precision here.

If your really want to add a new skill, then consider jumpers (or something similar). They have proven to be useful in L2 and in Lix, even though they are very powerful. Moreover they allow for lemming movements that are currently impossible. Downside is that they require lots of new sprites and getting their movement mechanics right will very likely be extremely diffcult.

[Simon]

We already have 3 continuous terrain removers that travel along the tip of the tunnel.
Have something that shoots, or affects terrain from further away.
Have something that both generates earth and removes earth.

Jumping is pure movement. It doesn't affect anyone else, not even indirectly via terrain.
Make something that remains in place for a long time, and meanwhile, it helps other lemmings get somewhere new.

We have many key skills: Disarmer, swimmer, floater. You give keys to lemmings to get somewhere, with little effect on the world. The disarmer may be the most interesting, because it paves the way for non-disarmers. Nonetheless, it feels like a key skill, not like a swiss army knife. Climber and glider are better than keys: There are downsides to climbing every wall.

-- Simon

[Gronkling]

Something like the laser blaster from L2 might be more interesting

[Proxima]

I don't like the laser blaster at all, but again maybe that's because of the way it was used in L2: every single appearance was a "hold the crowd, one lem does the work and laser blasts to release" level. L2 shot itself in the foot by removing the blocker (except from Classic), which is a much more interesting skill that can serve as crowd control but can do other things as well.

Jumpers are awesome, probably the best Lix skill outside the ones that are shared with NL already (walker, platformer).

[Proxima]

How about this modification of the laser blaster? When assigned, the game automatically pauses, and you can move the mouse. Based on the mouse's position relative to the lemming, it chooses one of 12 directions to fire the laser. (12 because the miner's slope is 2:1, so we offer 1:2 as an alternative diagonal direction.)

[Colorful Arty]

I personally feel if we are adding new skills, the two I feel would be the best would be a skill that reverses gravity for a lemmings (letting him walk on the ceiling and perform tasks upside-down) and SuperLemming (makes a lemmings do everything twice as fast, and not the superlemming from L2). Especially the upside-down lemming I feel would have a huge amount of potential for awesome solutions, although I'm not sure how difficult that would be to implement.

Personally, I think the fencer skill is too similar to the basher and miner. Plus, with the upside-down lemmings, mining would essentially become fencing.

[bulletride]

I am not sure that the fencer would be a great addition:

• L2 Tribes: If I counted correctly, 28 levels use a fencer. Out of them 23 would work equally well with bashers, 3 use the fencer to emulate a one-way-wall and 2 levels would require replacing a steel block (that is not necessary for removing otherwise possible solutions!) by destructible terrain. So L2 did absolutely nothing interesting at all with the fencer!

The problem with the fencer in Lemmings 2 was that the slope it made was to small.



This made the skill kind of useless and very similar to the basher. I think that if the fencer created a slope the same angle as the miner does it would make it a more useful skill.

I think having another way to gain height besides building would be nice to have.

[Dullstar]

I don't have any objections to it; but the specific mechanics (i.e. the angle of the slope) would greatly affect how useful it would be.

While we're at skill discussions, these are L2 skills that could possibly be useful (ordered from what I feel are the most useful to the least useful):
Jumper
Rock Climber - Would make working with rough terrain a little easier without breaking the normal climber's mechanics. I have a few level designs that would look visually nicer if this skill were available.
Laser Blaster (L2 didn't really use it for much interesting but I think being able to dig upwards could be used well)
Shimmier

I feel that L2's problem wasn't necessarily that it had too many skills - it was the fact that there were too many near-identical skills (e.g. hang glider, magic carpet, Icarus wings, jet pack).  I don't think there's anything wrong with having a lot of skills as long as each skill can justify its existence, by being different enough.  Some skills don't even try to be different though. The biggest offenders I can think of would have to be the basher/club basher.