[SuperLemmini] SubLems

[Colorful Arty]

Thanks Nepster! Glad to hear you liked some of those levels!

Spoiler

Hellish 1: I don't plan on sealing the backroutes. All of the backroutes have different advantages/disadvantages but all seem equally hard.

Scary 3: Not the intended solution AT ALL! You were supposed to build outward, block, and build back to get that high.

Scary 4: Easy fix. I'll make that thin ledge steel next time. To make it easier on yourself, try putting the blocker at the beginning so only one lemming goes forward.

Scary 5: I'll make that level smaller in the update. It has no right to be that long.

Scary 9: Normally I would make that smaller, but you need pretty much all of the space for its sequel in Hellish. I may totally remake that level with the same solution though.

Scary 10: Uh, you were NOT supposed to be able to walk through the ice blower... You were supposed to build from the right side to the ship and THEN let the people off the ship.

Scary 12: I honestly didn't even know that was POSSIBLE! 0_0 You were supposed to zig-zag up the left side of the course.

Scary 14: You were not supposed to just build up, but I may leave that in. If not, I can just make it an 8 of everything level instead of a 10 of everything level.

Scary 17: I'll make the steel more visible.

Scary 18: I'll adjust the water/steel to fix that problem.

Scary 19: You were kind of supposed to go through the roof ala Call in the bomb squad. I'll make the edges of the ground steel as well.

Scary 20: I'll remove the trap. I put it in because I wanted the boss to actually be a threat.

Once again, thanks for all of the feedback! Good luck with Chaotic!

[Ben H]

Nice to see SuperLemmini getting some love.

It is my favourite Lemmings engine, but it doesn't seem to get too much love around here.

[namida]

Nice to see SuperLemmini getting some love.

It is my favourite Lemmings engine, but it doesn't seem to get too much love around here.

If you look at what the two engines that do see significant use (NeoLemmix and Lix) have that SuperLemmini doesn't, you might see why.

[Colorful Arty]

While NeoLemmix (and to some Lix) are quite good, there are a few reasons I like SuperLemmini over them.

1. SuperLemmini has better graphics and more fluid animation.

2. SuperLemmini gets rid of glitches, but keeps quirky behavior, while NeoLemmix removes them both.

3. I find most NeoLemmix packs I have seen use entirely custom graphics. While that is cool, I prefer the original and ONML tilesets, as they seem better done and (in my opinion) have much more potential than the new ones. The new ones seem very monochrome. Again, no offense meant toward the new tilesets.

4. I find creating levelpacks is a LOT easier in SuperLemmini. (Mainly because I don't know how to make a NeoLemmix pack.

[IchoTolot]

While NeoLemmix (and to some Lix) are quite good, there are a few reasons I like SuperLemmini over them.

1. SuperLemmini has better graphics and more fluid animation.

2. SuperLemmini gets rid of glitches, but keeps quirky behavior, while NeoLemmix removes them both.

3. I find most NeoLemmix packs I have seen use entirely custom graphics. While that is cool, I prefer the original and ONML tilesets, as they seem better done and (in my opinion) have much more potential than the new ones. The new ones seem very monochrome. Again, no offense meant toward the new tilesets.

4. I find creating levelpacks is a LOT easier in SuperLemmini. (Mainly because I don't know how to make a NeoLemmix pack.

1.) Ok, personally Graphics don't matter to me. If I want graphics I play sth else.

2.) Flamethrower climb, climber miner tunnel, "Retro 20" == Glitch     These are not quirky anymore...they are just unlogical. You can't climb through fire....Lemmings turn in a tunnel....Lemmings cannot walk through walls! These are basic rules which are violated!

3.) The old ones are still there. You just got more to choose from. + Lemmings 2  tilesets look even more awesome than the Lemmings 1 tilesets in my opinion

4.) Lemmini/Superlemmini pack creation is a nightmare compared to NeoLemmix. Writing a huge text file + getting all the folders together is just a hazzle. In NL simply get the FlexiToolkit, give it all your levels+music+png-graphics(optional) and done! You got your pack! + you get a written tutorial on the NL homepage.
If you don't know the other way you can't simply say the old one is better

And now the ONLY argument I would possibly need:  Frameskipping!  This alone accomplishes more than everything combined!

I don't want to waste hours of my life watching replays of what I just did over and over + I love levels with awesome, but often precise tricks. These require precision which SuperLemmini doesn't provide. I also like huge and hard levels which is made worse with replay watching as well.
The level is about the puzzle and not getting the execution right for hours!
I hated this back in my Lemmini days when I knew the solution right at the start but could not quickly execute it and get quickly on to the next level.


Alright enough SuperLemmini rant for now... will later sent more feedback replays

The far biggest criticism I have about the (really good ) pack so far is the engine   (Nepster pointed this out about my feedback in IRC as well)
Followed by sometimes the usage of glitches (I will continue to use that term!) + hidden traps (this can easily be fixed)     

[Gronkling]

I will wait for a playthrough of this pack on youtube or similar as I don't want to install Java. It looks pretty from what I've seen though :>

[Nepster]

And let the Chaos rule...

1) Nice idea, but the lemmings on the left come to the edge one frame(!!!) after the corresponding lemmings on the right. This makes it extremely hard to turn them both into builders. Could you please move the hatches on the left perhaps 3 pixels farther to the left. This would already help a lot.
2) Compression Method.
3) Exciting second part of the Love level. I had one problem with it though: I started the long bridge slightly too late and my builder lemming turned around. As there isn't a possibility to turn him again, I had to redo everything and start the bridge earlier. How about adding a 7-pixels drop at the end (i.e. just before one starts the bridge) in case the builder turns around?
4) Very good level! It took me quite some time to find the correct positions.
5) I would swap it with the corresponding Scary level, which I found harder.
6) Sorry, but what is the point of this level?
7) see contest.
8) Not hard, but much fun to play.
9) Pure bomber timing . If something interesting is done with the bombers (like in Hellish 5), then I will gladly make the effort to time them correctly, but here the whole point is getting the timing correctly. Sorry, but I will not play this level.
10) Nice take on the lem-bunching idea.
11) Not sure, if this is intended, because it abuses SuperLemmini mechanics: One-way-arrows cancel steel .
12) Excellent level!
13) A good level to teach the basher-trick for later hellish levels. But it is easier than the other Hellish levels and not too interesting.
14) This level is extremely hard and should be in the second half of Hellish! A lot of solutions require either 11 or 12 builders or they need a minute more, ...
15) Just look at my solution and you will know what I would write as a comment.
16) Another excellent level that can easily be in Hellish. The (weird) climber mechanics in SuperLemmini remove a few alternative solutions.
17) This level on the other hand should be Scary.
18) I had very much fun playing this level , even though it is not too complicated.
19) Another excellent level! Perhaps move this level to a later rank as well.
20) Did you forget to add the exit? I checked in the mouth and on the top, but couldn't find any exit.

[Tsyu]

There are no empty pixels; it is solid, but lemmings still treat it like empty space. I'll try to fix that as well.

I am not completely familiar with the SuperLemmini code and how it recognizes air vs. solid terrain. If SuperLemmini automatically sets all pixels with the background color to air, then the problem might simply be that some pixels in the blue terrain pieces have precisely that color. So it might be worth a try to change the background color in this level slightly, which (if I remember correctly) can be done in SuperLemmini.

SuperLemmini uses transparency, not color, to determine whether a pixel is solid. And if mask ([stylename]m_*) exists for a terrain piece, then SuperLemmini uses that instead of the graphic (([stylename]_*) to make this decision. (The mask feature exists so that the high-resolution graphics don't drastically change how some levels like Mayhem 26 play.)

What's really going on is that the visual graphic for terrain piece 28 in the Fire set is one pixel thicker than its mask, and Colorful Arty aligned the pieces based on the visual graphic (I blame the people who made Windows Lemmings' high-resolution graphics). I'll have discrepancies like this fixed in SuperLemmini 0.103.

Level 15: After spending 15 mins trying to find any way to solve this, I gladfully thought of that BUG (yes this should be considered as a bug ) behavior where a climber gets stuck in
                a basher/minertunnel....turned RR to 68 and level done.

I don't think I've encountered this before. Could you attach a replay demonstrating this?

11) Not sure, if this is intended, because it abuses SuperLemmini mechanics: One-way-arrows cancel steel .

This behavior will be fixed in SuperLemmini 0.103. (This also means that the nukers in Newbie 10 will no longer leave a gap under the exit.)

[IchoTolot]

Level 15: After spending 15 mins trying to find any way to solve this, I gladfully thought of that BUG (yes this should be considered as a bug ) behavior where a climber gets stuck in
                a basher/minertunnel....turned RR to 68 and level done.

I don't think I've encountered this before. Could you attach a replay demonstrating this?

Replay is already attached in the zip file. Level: DON'T TURN AROUND!

[IchoTolot]

Alright here is Retro

Spoiler

Level 1: Good and easy start

Level 2: This was actually the solution I mostly use on this level

Level 3: Builders will help you here: Good level idea, even though it took some restarts.

Level 4: This is the hardest level in this rank in my opinion and it's a good one.

Level 5: Quite a few people have used this solution before, so I knew what was up

Level 6: Well, nothing much has changed from the original here a more different solution would have been nice.

Level 7: Precision mining and SuperLemmini is not a good combination, but otherwise an alright level.

Level 8: Also alright, but not very special.

Level 9: A simple climber+bomber and it's already over.

Level 10: Again just a very slight variation of the original.

Level 11: The solution itself is good , but BOMBER TIMING is not my favorite

Level 12: Well, nearly nothing has changed just missing the digging tools which arent 100% nessesary.

Level 13: WHY    I did it with RR 74 first so 1digger for 3Lems, but them the time was over ---> restart          As you notices most of the folks don't like WAFD

Level 14: "Just Dig" and you are nearly done.

Level 15: This is easier than the regular level, as the miner doesn't turn on steel here it leaves only the bomber for that part.

Level 16: Oh how I love me some Bomber timing ........

Level 17: That one was good . I used a similar solution in one of Reunions levels, just swapped that digger with a blocker.

Level 18: The blocker wall is new but apart from that nothing really extraordinary here.

Level 19: This was waaay to easy and I would swap this with "Only floaters can survive this"

Level 20: That's a glitch!   Lemmings must not move through solid terrain! Glad I remembered this trick from the old standard Lemmix version! Saw only 1 destructive skill
                and thought right: Ok let's glitch through the wall again   like in the old days.      I would replace this level.

I felt no real difficulty here for most of the levels, but I assume I nearly saw EVERYTHING done with the original L1 levels by now over all the years.  They mostly bring nothing really new to the table anymore. Also it can be that I solved so much until now that all these old little tricks just fall right into my eyes.
+ some of them could differ a bit more from the original.

The DOS music is still awesome though

[grams88]

Hope all is well.

I quite like the updated version of lemmini which is superlemmini. It looks like you did a lot of work there Tsyu, one thing I did notice was that you are able to click on the lemmings to build in about the same place as in the one before it was difficult or sometimes it did not work. Sorry If I never explained that too well. I've not really tried Neolemmix myself yet so it would probably be hard for me to compare.

Oh got to love those walking bombers Ichotolot. Well maybe they can get annoying at times.

I've been trying some of the retro levels as well, that's me onto the 5th level. Kind of reminds me of my small pack where you play some of the original levels and make a different puzzle out of them.


Here's some more replays for yourself ColorfulArty.

[Colorful Arty]

Glad you're enjoying the pack grams! It's always nice to see SuperLemmini get appreciated!

Replies to Nepster's Chaotic solutions...

Spoiler

Chaotic 1: I will move the left hatches. Good suggestion!
Chaotic 2: the pass-through blocker was not intended, but same solution overall! Nicely done!
Chaotic 3: I will make that small pit. Another great suggestion!
Chaotic 4: I'm glad you enjoyed the level, because I only kept it for the architecture!
Chaotic 5: I may remove this level. I originally intended you to mine RIGHT after hitting the left wall to hit steel and take off a tiny chunk of the wall (a glitch). People don't like that, and there are a ton of backroutes, so this may either get the boot or be seriously changed.
Chaotic 6: the point was I didn't expect you to dig at the top. Guess I'm putting some steel in...
Chaotic 8: Nice job only having to make three steps!
Chaotic 9: I completely understand your frustration with walking bombing. By all means, if you hate a level, then skip it; the whole point is to have fun. I think this level is excusable because it is the only levels that is solely extensive walk-bombing and I said it "stinks". #stealthpun.
Chaotic 10: Nice job not needing all of the bashers! If you do opt to use them all, you get a single lemming that is actually 10 lemmings bunched together.
Chaotic 11: the actual solution requires all of the skills to be used and for proper timing with the skills. Since Tsyu is planning on fixing the arrow/steel trick, I can leave this unchanged.
Chaotic 12: Wow... O_O That is absolutely NOT what I intended, but it is awesome and tricky enough, I'll leave it in!
Chaotic 13: Your solution is MUCH better than mine! I think I'll change it to enforce your solution!
Chaotic 14: Wow. You made that level SO MUCH HARDER than necessary! Check out my replay; the lemmings are supposed to go counter-clockwise to counter the clock. #stealthpun
Chaotic 15: I am extremely tempted to either remove this level and its Sweet counterpart or shorten them both. It could be worse; you originally had 10 minutes, and it was a time-crunch!
Chaotic 16: Pass-through blocker was not necessary and actually made that level slightly harder.
Chaotic 17: Yeah. I couldn't decide if this level was super good and hard, or super boring and easy. I guess that answers that.
Chaotic 18: Nice job finishing with extra skills!
Chaotic 19: This was originally in Insane, which explains the difficulty spike. I swapped it with what is now Insane 5, since that level I thought was harder.
Chaotic 20: the exit is past the brickasaur's mouth under the eye, beyond the steel. There is a small metal circle in his mouth; that is where you bash to find the exit.

For IchoTolot

Spoiler

I do agree Retro 20 IS a glitch. I found it accidentally  when testing Labyrinth of Lucifer, and thought it was too cool to not make a level after it. It worked perfectly for A task for blockers and bombers.

I'm a bit disappointed other people have found the alternate solutions before me, but at least Only Floaters was new, but I'm not sure I agree that is the hardest level in Retro; I thought level 20 was arguably the hardest level in the game.

I do like how originally before Retro was in ascending order of difficulty, the final level was "And now, the end is near."

[Nepster]

Regarding Chaotic 10, 17 and 20

10) Not if you set the RR to 99 at the beginning
17) Simple is not equal to super boring! It would be an absolutely fine level somewhere in Scary.
20) I took the small metal circle as a hint "Here is the exit" and would never have come up with the interpretation "Bash here".

Insane

1) Another very good level, though slightly on the easy side. It is a prime example, why no-overwrite for exits is so important: I deliberately mined in such a way, that the lemmings all fall on the very right end of the exit platform. But unfortunately, they turned around .
2) Nice prequel to the Hellish level.
3) Point Simon to this level as a good example of a disjoint union . Not exceptionally hard, but fun nevertheless.
PS: The replay should be fairly confusing, because I always jump around on the map. Sorry about that.
4) Given that I knew about the small gaps now, this was much fun!
5) Good looking, nice idea, but way too much climbing and waiting. Especially given the bomber timing at the very end!
6) There is only about a 50% chance that the bomber will actually make a hole and not just a dent. And it is pure luck, what you actually get! Please make the grass platform one pixel thinner.
7) Invisible terrain Only found out after making a mistake and letting a lemming fall "into" the water If you mine at the top, the miner may survive, but there is no way all other lemmings can survive the drop But to determine this, one needs like 100 tries And NO, the hint in the title is no excuse at all My interpretation was, that the single "Jesus"-lemming does go out of his way to help the poor other lemmings. (and it wouldn't be a hint for buddhists, hindi, ... at all, at least unless they have way more knowledge about christianity than I have about their religion)
8) This trick borders on abusing the game mechanics as well.
9) Sorry for not playing this, but I will only play this once framestepping or something similar is possible in SuperLemmini. In Hellish 9, one knows that the solution one has in mind will actually work, so getting the assignments correct is not too bad. But here, one has to try lots of different approaches, see whether they work out, adapt them and then try again, ... And always one has to deal with these horrible precise skill assignments on the chains.
10) No different than the first occurance of this level.
11) Again the very same solution as in its prequel.
12) The first half is very nice. But the second half is quite fiddly and requires lots and lots of tries. The issue resolved with the bomber at the end shows you what always went wrong. It would be much better if this problematic and fiddly part is at the very beginning of the level to be able to restart the level faster. Don't get me wrong: The trick for the last part is excellent, only its position in the level can be improved.
13) This time the crossing was surprisingly easy to set up.
14) I am almost certain, that this solution is not intended.
15) A nice and fun level, but should be in Scary.
16) This has to be a backroute!
17) A brilliant level! There is only one minor problem: The "water" in the middle which reaches quite a bit into the terrain on its left. And this part of the terrain is precisely the location, where I wanted to dig down Perhaps one could replace this "water" with a chameleon?
18) Not sure this is 100% intended. I simply did the first thing that came to my mind and somehow it worked... But maybe I just got lucky
19) This level was actually quite fun, despite the waiting periods (that kind of fit within the theme here).
20) Argh! Another "search your exit" level with no indication where it possibly may be. Sorry, people who like these kind of levels are welcome to them, but I have better things to do.

PS: Sorry for the rant about Insane 7.

[Colorful Arty]

Regarding Insane:

Spoiler

Insane 1: this level is a bit easy. The reason the exit is NOT set to "no overwrite" is because I didn't want the pole sticking through the exit.
Insane 2: Glad you like it. Originally, this was the Hellish version.
Insane 3: This level was actually originally in Scary. I moved it to Chaotic, and then Insane, because if one didn't know the solutions to the original levels, this would be rather tricky.
Insane 4: One of my favorites! This is why I recommend people play Newbie first, even if they are experts.
Insane 5: Admittedly, this level definitely would be better on NeoLemmix. Originally, this was Icing on the Cake and Lemmings about town was in Chaotic. I named this level BEFORE playing the ONML level named almost the same thing.
Insane 6: I would love to see your replay for this level, because you are not supposed to be able to bomb through the grass. Watch my replay to see if you got it right.
Insane 7: Yeah, I knew I would get rants about this level. You make good points; what if I made arrows appear on the terrain above the water to make it more noticable? The platforms are only 1 pixel high, so it would be subtle, but fair.
Insane 8: That is not abusing the game mechanics, this is just a twist on the bridge wall.
Insane 9: I understand you not wanting to play this. Getting the timing right is really just a few replays long though.
Insane 10: This is different. See my replays for this and the Scary version.
Insane 11: This will be tough to seal the backroute, but I think I know how.
Insane 12: I'll see what I can do, but that level is so beautiful (in my eyes) I'm afraid I'll damage it by changing its look.
Insane 13: I thought this was arguably harder than the Hellish incarnation, but this is one of my favorites.
Insane 14: I really want to see your replay now. You're supposed to build two bridge walls to keep the lemmings penned in while two of them work on each side and bash through the "mouth" and blow up to create a giant hole to the exit.
Insane 15: This was supposed to be harder, but I couldn't get the timing right, so I made it much easier; I still think it is a bit advanced for Scary though.
Insane 16: I want that replay.
Insane 17: Judging by your request to change the liquid, I'm guessing you severely backrouted this level.
Insane 18: this level is horribly broken. I'm trying to fix it, but I'm not seeing any way to enforce the solution.
Insane 19: I'm surprised you liked this level so much! I was sure people would be raging about the precision needed for this level. (Sorry you didn't make the wall)
Insane 20: The whole point of Boss levels is to "kill" the boss. That should give you some idea where the exit is. The exit is BARELY visible; a few pixels do stick out, but they're REALLY hard to see. I actually thought this level was arguably easier than the Chaotic boss due to there being no shortage on skills.

[Nepster]

Oops, I forgot to attach the replays . Here are they.

Regarding Insane 1, 7, 9

1) Then please leave a small gap at the foot of the pole, so that lemmings may reach the exit, even if the fall onto the right edge of the platform.
7) ...or just make that 1-pixel high platform visible?
9) "few replays"... Only if you try the correct solution right away, because you know it to be the correct solution.