Lemmings Challenges

[tseug]

 [smiley=thumbsup.gif] WOO, nice! I'll have to try that, I thought of another possible aproach.

[ccexplore]

After having played the NES version for a while, I'm starting to actually like it.

In fact, while the game mechanics does at first feel a little more restrictive since most skills always starts on a grid boundary rather than at arbitrary pixel positions, it does have the inherent advantage of making levels harder to backroute. &#A0;So it can be challenging in its own way, if you're willing to give up having total, instantaneous, arbitrary-pixel-precise control over the lemmings.

Being me, playing a lemmings game always mean trying to see how many I can save, so here's my current records on this game. &#A0;I have only finished Fun and Tricky at this point. &#A0;(All unlisted levels means, per convention, 100% saved on them. &#A0;The NES version has 25 levels per rating.)

Fun 3: lose 5
Fun 6: lose 2

Tricky 1: lose 1
Tricky 3: lose 1
Tricky 5: lose 1
Tricky 6: lose 2
Tricky 10: lose 1
Tricky 13: lose 2
Tricky 17: lose 1
Tricky 18: lose 2
Tricky 19: lose 12
Tricky 25: lose 1

Feel free to try and see if you can improve on these scores. &#A0;I haven't found any glitches yet in this game, so it's possible maybe you'll find some totally unexpected behavior that can be made use of.

And yes, Tricky 19 is the NES's version of "Cascade" (though the title is different). &#A0;The 100% trick in the normal versions does not work in that version due to a number of factors, including the fact that the digger removes a whole grid of terrain at once rather than just one row of pixels at a time, and that most skill assignments always take place at grid boundaries.

P.S. &#A0;You can get screenshots and stats of the Fun levels via the deveria.com's password listing for the GameBoy version, whose levels appear to be identical to the NES version's. &#A0;The stats it has for the Tricky levels are wrong, and it has nothing for the Taxing and Mayhem levels. &#A0;I'll try to fill in those gaps later, on another thread.

[Lemmings Luver]

Fun 10 ` Smile if you love lemmings: Save 100% using only 2 miners and 2 diggers

<br>Here's a different challenge for that level: &#A0;save all but 1 (90% I think) using just 1 miner and 1 digger. &#A0;(Equivalently, just save all but 2 with 1 digger)<br><br>(I've look into 100% solution using a subset of LemSteven's challenge's skillset but the timing just doesn't work out for the second lemming out, at least on the PC.)

Thats easy! You can do it with 1 digger and 1 miner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D O_o

[tseug]

I achieved lose 11 on Taxing 28 (SNES). I think the old record was lose 15 but correct me if I'm wrong. It looks possible to lose 10, I was a bit sloppy.

I managed lose 10. If lose 9 is possible it will certainly be hard...

The only way I can think of getting lose 9 wouldn't work on the SNES, but it might in DOS. That means no savestates...

[ccexplore]

I achieved lose 11 on Taxing 28 (SNES). I think the old record was lose 15 but correct me if I'm wrong. It looks possible to lose 10, I was a bit sloppy.

I managed lose 10. If lose 9 is possible it will certainly be hard...

The only way I can think of getting lose 9 wouldn't work on the SNES, but it might in DOS. That means no savestates...

Wow, I have to admit you really surprised me with this one. &#A0;Let me guess, you climb up, but not up the usual tall wall before the water? &#A0;That's the only thing I can think of that might remotely allow such an achievement.

Good job once again. [smiley=thumbsup.gif] &#A0;I think I'll finish the NES levels first before going back to this level.

[ccexplore]

Let me guess, you climb up, but not up the usual tall wall before the water? &#A0;That's the only thing I can think of that might remotely allow such an achievement.

Actually, I guess you don't need to use the structure on the left to do what I'm thinking of, it can be done equally well (and probably faster too) with the plain right wall.

On the other hand, if you did what I think you did, I don't see yet why savestates are needed......

[Jazzem]

Tricky 1: lose 1

I managed to do that without losing any... Well, on the Game Boy version, and they're both seemingly alike.

I'll have a look at the others later.

[tseug]

Maybe savestates aren't needed that much because all the precision is at the beginning. It's still a lot though: lose 10 requires pixel precision in 4 places, lose 9 in roughly 7 (if it works). I won't post screenshots because it sounds like you want to figure it out yourself. The same trick might work on Mayhem 19 on the Genesis, I'll try it later.

I should try the NES...

EDIT: Could someone remind me of all the levels like Taxing 28 (SENS/DOS) and Mayhem 19 (Genesis ?

[ccexplore]

Maybe savestates aren't needed that much because all the precision is at the beginning. It's still a lot though: lose 10 requires pixel precision in 4 places, lose 9 in roughly 7 (if it works). I won't post screenshots because it sounds like you want to figure it out yourself.

If you just post the screenshots as links, I don't have to see them myself, so go ahead if you want. &#A0;Though at this point I think I know what you did anyway.

And given that my lose 15 solution was a pain in the behind to do, I doubt your solutions can be any worse.

The same trick might work on Mayhem 19 on the Genesis, I'll try it later.

I'm afraid it won't work, since as far as I know, [highlight]you can't push yourself inside a wall using builders alone.[/highlight].

[ccexplore]

Tricky 1: lose 1

I managed to do that without losing any... Well, on the Game Boy version, and they're both seemingly alike.

I'll have a look at the others later.

I just look at the screenshot in deveria.com and noticed that even the terrain itself is slightly different on the GameBoy version (there's no wall on the level's left), so I think that level is apparently not the same on the Game Boy.

To give you an idea, take your GameBoy version of Tricky 1, put a wall on the left just like how it is on normal versions of the game. &#A0;Then give yourself RR 50, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 3 builders and 1 basher. &#A0;Since you need to use the basher elsewhere, I don't see any way to free the blocker, nor any way to avoid using it.

[tseug]

[highlight]you can't push yourself inside a wall using builders alone.[/highlight].

That is exactly what I did, it would work on any level like that.

screenshot

[ccexplore]

[highlight]you can't push yourself inside a wall using builders alone.[/highlight].

That is exactly what I did, it would work on any level like that.

Yes, but Mayhem 19 Genesis (Time to Get Up, basically same as PC/Amiga version) has nothing like that. &#A0;Are you sure you have the right level number?

[tseug]

I meant Mayhem 29. Oops!

It doesn't help Mayhem 29. It takes too long and there aren't enough builders.

It looks possible to save 100% on Taxing 17 (Genesis) with the Mayhem 2 trick. In this case it would be much harder than Mayhem 2 because everything would have to be lined up perfectly. I might try it.... [smiley=winktounge.gif]

The NES sure is weird!

There are certain places where a lemming will build 16 steps, 8 steps, or just shrug. What the... [smiley=huh2.gif]

Oh wow, a glitch: A lemming can climb up a wall when there is a miner hole in it! [smiley=huh2.gif]

[ccexplore]

There are certain places where a lemming will build 16 steps, 8 steps, or just shrug. What the... [smiley=huh2.gif]

The builder will always build in multiples of 8 steps (because that is the size of a grid cell, and as I mentioned earlier, most skills actions in NES Lemmings operate, in effect, on grid cells).

Generally it will stop building if there isn't empty space on the ceiling overhead or the cell you are about to build in. &#A0;In other words, basically the same rule as normal lemmings, but the collision detection is of a rougher resolution since it is cell-based (or so it seems). &#A0;Because of the multiple of 8 thing, it can mean not building at all (0 steps built, ie. "just shrug").

One collorary to what I said above is, you cannot use any tricks that's based on stacking bridges, because bridges will always be aligned to grid cells rather than locating at arbitrary pixel positions. &#A0;Another interesting side effect of this can be observed when you use the time-honor trick of bash/dig/mine a pit and then build to stop. &#A0;The NES rules generally means you won't see the builder build anything at all in that trick, although it still works since the bashing/digging/mining will stop before the failed attempt to build.

[ccexplore]

Oh wow, a glitch: A lemming can climb up a wall when there is a miner hole in it! [smiley=huh2.gif]

I can't comment on this since I can't tell for sure what that looks like (screenshot?). &#A0;But I'd venture that if you keep in mind all lemming-terrain collision detection in NES are cell-based, it probably wouldn't seem so glitchy anymore.