Lemmings Challenges

[tseug]

Savestates would be good. To me it looks like the cimbers hit their heads much lower in the Genesis version.

[ccexplore]

To achieve lose 1 would require the non-precision "Mayhem 10" trick to work. &#A0;I still haven't determined yet whether that trick fundamentally doesn't work in the Genesis version, or whether instead it's just a matter of changing the timing.

I've verified on Fun 11 that the "Mayhem 10" trick, in the way it was used in Mayhem 10, does work on the Genesis version. &#A0;But it's still possible that in the way it is needed for Tricky 23, there could be a difference, if the Genesis version switches the order or manner in which it checks for finishing climbing vs hitting the ceiling. &#A0;I'll have to see if I can find another Genesis level suitable for testing out the trick in the manner needed in Tricky 23.

[ccexplore]

Savestates would be good. To me it looks like the cimbers hit their heads much lower in the Genesis version.

Check your e-mail for the savestates and some explanations/tips on the solution.

[ccexplore]

To me it looks like the cimbers hit their heads much lower in the Genesis version.

I'm not sure if your explanation is correct, but I've checked via Tricky 19 on the Genesis and various RR, and I'm definitely unable to get the climber trick needed in Tricky 23 to work. &#A0;That makes one more difference between the Genesis version and the DOS version. &#A0;This also means lose 2 is maximum for Tricky 23 on the Genesis.

[ccexplore]

I've already tried that a while back but never got anywhere with it. &#A0;I did come up with one approach today that I haven't tried before though, but even if it leads to an improvement it would not be fast enough for 100%.

I played around with this new approach for DOS Mayhem 10 based on the glitch, and it looks like the most I can get from it is maybe a lose 2, and so far I can only get lose 3.

Worst part of this is, I can't use the SNES to test out. &#A0;The basher difference means that on the SNES, the basher's first stroke reaches one pixel further than on DOS. &#A0;This turns out to lead to some timing differences, so that a solution in SNES does not carry over identically to the DOS version. &#A0;Without savestates, progress on the DOS version would be slow, if there's room for progress at all.

[tseug]

I managed lose 2 on Tricky 23. I don't see any more possible improvements, this is probably as good as it gets.

Fun 3: 47/50
Fun 6: 48/50
Fun 18: 65/70

Tricky 15: 7/10
Tricky 16: 46/50
Tricky 17: 48/50
Tricky 18: 9/10
Tricky 21: 49/50
Tricky 23: 98/100

Taxing 13: 49/50
Taxing 14: 49/50
Taxing 17: 48/50
Taxing 19: 65/70
Taxing 25: 79/80

Mayhem 5: 76/80
Mayhem 14: 48/50
Mayhem 19: 47/50
Mayhem 29: 84/100

Present 2: 44/50
Present 16: 98/100

Sunsoft 6: 54/60
Sunsoft 22: 49/50
Sunsoft 24: 49/50
Sunsoft 27: 1/4

Total lost: 77

On the SNES lemmings can build all the way up to 3 pixels below the top of the level. [smiley=shocked.gif]

[geoo]

I worked out a 100% solution for Highland 10 - "Eat my Shrapnel!!" for the PC/Dos version yesterday.
If I didn't miss something, there has no solution for 100% PC/DOS version been known for now.

Screenshots/explaination available per PM or e-mail.

[ccexplore]

[smiley=thumbsup.gif]I just want to know whether it involves any glitches not used in the other current records for Lemmings 2.

[ccexplore]

I just looked at the screenshot from home.wanadoo.nl and I think I know what you did.  Kinda obvious actually, in hindsight.

How hard is it to execute?  I'm not a fan of (no pun intended) wind-driven skills, especially since if I recall, the game automatically unpauses when you select the wind icon, and you lose the wind if you pause.

[geoo]

In fact, my solution doesn't even need the ballooner.
It needs no precision, only some quite exact timing once.
Actually I thought first I'd need the ballooner, not too accurately but for a long time in the air at a certain position while doing some other things, which was made a lot harder due to the impossibility of getting the wind icon after unpausing. But looking at the skill bar I noticed a very easy way to avoid that.

I wouldn't call it a glitch used, it's just an intended feature acting a little unexpectedly.

[ccexplore]

I played around with this new approach for DOS Mayhem 10 based on the glitch, and it looks like the most I can get from it is maybe a lose 2, and so far I can only get lose 3.

It took a while, but I finally got a new record out of this new approach! &#A0;Thanks to tseug for alerting me at a second look at the level (come to think of it, all my recent records were spawned by other people's observations and comments ):

Mayhem 10: &#A0;save 97% (73/75, lose 2) on the PC/DOS version

I cannot conceive of any further improvements to the level barring some unknown new glitch.

This uses the same glitch that tseug has used brilliantly for the 100% solution to Mayhem 2 on the Genesis (which hopefully I'll confirm someday on the PC), plus a semi-known glitch with a slight twist. &#A0;Surprisingly, it's actually tricky to work out what to do after you have the landing place established, you'd be surprised by the amount of skills this solution takes up. &#A0;It took a while before I finally settled on the correct approach to go from merely having a landing place to a full, working solution. &#A0;Here's a hint (highlight to read): &#A0;[highlight]The end result actually looks partly like how one would've normally solve this level.[/highlight]

Since it's been such a long time since my last record on DOS Lemmings, here's a summary again of the current records for that game:

Fun 3: lose 3
Fun 6: lose 2
Fun 18: lose 5
Tricky 15: lose 3
Tricky 16: lose 4
Tricky 17: lose 2
Tricky 18: lose 1
Tricky 23: lose 1
Taxing 7: lose 1
Taxing 19: lose 5
Taxing 27: lose 3
Taxing 28: lose 15
Mayhem 2: lose 1 (hopefully in the future this will become 100% saved instead)
Mayhem 5: lose 4
Mayhem 10: lose 2
Mayhem 19: lose 3
Mayhem 26: lose 4
Mayhem 29: lose 3

Total lost: &#A0;62 (and hopefully 61 in the future)

This lose 2 solution for DOS Mayhem 10 does not carry over directly to the Amiga or SNES versions, because a subtle difference in the basher's mask leads to some timing differences, plus on those versions you can't change RR instantaneously. &#A0;I haven't tried the Mac version either, but again it hinges on details of the basher's mask on that version.

That being said, I believe the solution could be modified and adapted to work on those versions also, but I'll leave that for some other day. &#A0;Note that the Mayhem-2 glitch itself has been confirmed to work on all aforementioned versions of the game.

[Proxima]

Very cool!

When you try the Mac's Mayhem 10, will you also post a list like the above one for the current best records on the Mac version? I'd like to try some of them when I have time.... not that I have any notion when that will be.

[ccexplore]

Very cool!

When you try the Mac's Mayhem 10, will you also post a list like the above one for the current best records on the Mac version? I'd like to try some of them when I have time.... not that I have any notion when that will be.

I could, kind of, but there would be a number of records that are not yet confirmed for the Mac version. &#A0;Ultimately I'd need to replay all the levels listed above on the Mac, which can become pretty difficult and tedious even for me.

So, going along the habit of taking the path of least resistance, I think I'll do that after making more progress on the MIDIs.

In the meanwhile, I can note some known differences between the PC and Mac versions, record-wise:

• Tricky 15 needs 4 bombers on the Mac
  
• I couldn't get lose 1 to work on Tricky 23, I don't remember my best so far but it's like lose 4 or so. &#A0;I think it's due to difference in the miner's terrain-removal mask
  
• Taxing 6 cannot be 100% because you can't bash thru the steel the same way you can on DOS. &#A0;But it's confirmed possible to lose just 1 (98%).
  
• Mayhem 26...you know the deal with this one
  

[/color]

[Proxima]

Glad to hear the MIDIs haven't been forgotten! I was wondering.....

[ccexplore]

This lose 2 solution for DOS Mayhem 10 does not carry over directly to the Amiga or SNES versions, because a subtle difference in the basher's mask leads to some timing differences, plus on those versions you can't change RR instantaneously. &#A0;I haven't tried the Mac version either, but again it hinges on details of the basher's mask on that version.

That being said, I believe the solution could be modified and adapted to work on those versions also, but I'll leave that for some other day.

Some other day like, um, today.

I worked out and confirmed a lose 2 Mayhem 10 solution for the SNES, which almost certainly implies the same solution would work on the Amiga. &#A0;I have the solution such that the highest RR increase is from 1 to 27, which sounds like a lot but is doable, plus you can probably afford to do it over the span of 2 lemmings instead of 1. &#A0;(Or, it might be possible to modify the solution slightly to make the 27 lower.) &#A0;The next highest RR change would be from 1 to 12 at the beginning, and followed by a 12 to 7 and then 7 to 1. &#A0;Peanuts.

It is quite hard to carry out the solution without savestates though, I have to admit. &#A0;Especially because this modified solution swaps the roles of a basher and a digger (necessary to avoid big RR jumps and to account for certain differences between the DOS and SNES/Amiga version), which as a side effect results in some hairier moves near the end, the kind where a mistake can ruin your day. &#A0;(Although these difficulties might be mitigatable.)

Oh yeah, time left: &#A0;on the DOS version I have about 2 minutes left, and on the SNES version about 1:30 left. &#A0;It's hard to imagine the Amiga version being so much slower that it would time out. &#A0;(And in the unlikely event that it does time-out, you would simply lose 1 more.)

This leaves confirmation on the Mac to be done.