Lemmings Challenges

[tseug]

What was your solution to Taxing 13?

It sounds like you know what I'm going to do for Mayhem 2. What are you thinking of? btw I almost got it, but I ran out of builders.

The miner glitch activates without using a blocker or bomber.

[ccexplore]

While I was trying Tricky 23 I found out that the miner glitch activates automatically when the miner reaches the bottom of the level. Does this happen in DOS?

Oh I think I know what you mean now (I haven't tried it yet though myself).  Are you saying the miner never removed the bottom-most row of pixels before he is taken out of the game for falling off?

The miner definitely breaks through completely in the DOS version.  I've gotta check out this Genesis deviation myself.

[ccexplore]

What was your solution to Taxing 13?

Actually, now that I recall better, I think my DOS solution ends up requiring an even more extreme RR change than Ahribar's, so never mind about that.  There would possibly also issues with not being able to right-click select on the Genesis version.  I'll have to rethink that level a little bit for the Genesis version.

It sounds like you know what I'm going to do for Mayhem 2. What are you thinking of? btw I almost got it, but I ran out of builders.

I'm guessing you're thinking of that glitch that you finally figured out recently, that can [highlight]send lemmings up very fast.[/highlight]

[ccexplore]

Getting closer on Tricky 23... there was a leak. It may be impossible without the "walkers only" function.

I didn't need the "walker only" feature at all for the DOS version. &#A0;In fact it's actually useless because I actually needed to select a left-going walker out of a crowd of more recently released, right-going walkers. &#A0;Fortunately, thanks partly to the stairs, it turns out you can, with great difficulty and a very precisely placed cursor and a very precisely paused frame, succeed in selecting the left-going walker. &#A0;(At least that's the main difficulty in my lose 1 solution. &#A0;It's conceivable that there's a second way to do lose 1, but it would have its own difficulties too.)

I'll try this one out tonight on the Genesis and let you know. &#A0;I actually first succeeded at the lose 1 solution of Tricky 23 on the SNES version, so since I can also use savestates in the Genesis version, I fully expect to succeed.

Incidentally, I should add that while a lose 3 solution for Tricky 23 is almost straightforward, the lose 1 solution (well, mine anyway), in addition to requiring precision, is also less straightforward.

[ccexplore]

I'll try this one out tonight on the Genesis and let you know. &#A0;I actually first succeeded at the lose 1 solution of Tricky 23 on the SNES version, so since I can also use savestates in the Genesis version, I fully expect to succeed.

Huh, this is shocking, it does look like there are some subtle differences that's making it unsuccessful for me to get even a lose-2 solution to work on the Genesis version. &#A0;I can't even get a certain move that's not precision to work!

I did notice in the process that the basher's terrain-removal mask actually is a tiny bit different from the DOS and SNES version, so I guess geoo89 is right after all. &#A0;Interestingly, I seem to remember observing something similar in the Amiga version. &#A0;Makes me wonder now if the Amiga version will also have the same issues.

Maybe I'll try again later, but I'm forced to say for now that lose 3 might be the minimum on the Genesis version, and it is at least unconfirmed on the Amiga version. &#A0;I'm still a bit in shock.

[tseug]

You're right about Mayhem 2.
The climber trick doesn't work, lose 3 looks like the minimum for Tricky 23. I give up unless you can find something.

YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! 100% on Mayhem 2. [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif]
I used all the builders, but I didn't really need to. I can't imagine doing that without savestates...

[Proxima]

Are you saying the miner never removed the bottom-most row of pixels before he is taken out of the game for falling off?

I remember observing that phenomenon (though not in the context of a challenge) a couple of times in the Mac version.

[tseug]

I'm working on a 100% solution to mayhem 2. Executing it is like trying to knock a planet out of orbit with a walnut, so don't expect me to finish it soon.

Hmm, that's an interesting idea now that you mentioned it.  I'll let you be the guinea pig and then maybe try it out on the DOS version if you succeed.

First try Mayhem 10, it might be possible to save 100%.

[ccexplore]

I've already tried that a while back but never got anywhere with it.  I did come up with one approach today that I haven't tried before though, but even if it leads to an improvement it would not be fast enough for 100%.

Awesome job on Mayhem 2 btw. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[tseug]

[smiley=laugh.gif] Thanks, it was hard.

Screenshots:
before the glitch (before they popped up)
near the end (and after)
crowd control (5 builders to set up, 1 to release)

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It takes too long to set up in Mayhem 10, the best I got was lose 4.

[ccexplore]

Thanks for the screenshots, they'll be of great use when (or if? ) I get around to trying it for the DOS version.  Though I was expecting the lemmings to be not as spreaded out when looking at the "before" screenshot.

[tseug]

The spreading out is almost perfect: 93 lemmings at the back condensed into a point, and a fairly evenly spaced group in front. I got that set up by releasing the crowd at different times until it worked, that would be hard without savestates. :-/ And notice that the solution involves a lot of waiting, and so far as I know, there is no fast forward in DOS. The most difficult parts occur between 4 and 5 minutes in, ugly with no savesttates. :-/ There are plenty of other difficult parts in between.

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WHOA!!!!! What's with the miner in the SNES?? Every other step is a pixel longer, and the first stroke only goes down 1 pixel!

[ccexplore]

Yeah, the miner mask is different in the SNES version.  Actually, I think what happens is they fix the miner glitch in the SNES version, which in turn would affect where the terrain masks are drawn.

I checked the basher's mask in the SNES version and to my surprise, discover that it is in fact the same as the Genesis and Amiga versions.  So it would seem that the difference has nothing to do with the basher's mask.  I would need to observe the Genesis version more carefully to see what is going on.  It's possible that maybe one of the tricks (which I often called the "Mayhem 10" trick) I rely on for the solution simply doesn't work in the Genesis version, I'll have to find another level to check.  Even so, I still expect lose 2 to be possible but I couldn't even achieve that on the Genesis version, despite appearing to have done everything the exactly same way I've handle the SNES version.

Fortunately, thanks to savestates, I think I can at least do side-by-side comparisons and see if I find the crucial difference.

[ccexplore]

Hmm, I think I might've found the difference.  I noticed that in the SNES version, when an lemming emerges out of the entrance, the starting position (ie., not the entrance itself, but where the lemming emerges) is higher than what is observed in the Genesis and PC versions.

This might help explain the SNES-Genesis difference.  Since there are a few lemmings that I hold back by assigning floater as soon as they come out, this means those lemmings cannot held back as much in the Genesis version, which could perhaps lead to the various problems I ran into in the Genesis version.

I also tried to make a comparison between the PC and Genesis, but I don't have a good means to make an accurate determination.  Nevertheless, it looks to me that the PC version's start position might be one pixel higher than the Genesis version.  A 1-pixel difference can be significant since it can potentially buy the extra frame of delay you need.

[ccexplore]

Even so, I still expect lose 2 to be possible but I couldn't even achieve that on the Genesis version, despite appearing to have done everything the exactly same way I've handle the SNES version.

Never mind, I have finally achieved lose 2 on the Genesis version!  Turns out my memory was rusty and I shouldn't have assign the climber to a certain lemming (doing so inadvertently enabled him to climb out when he caught up with the miner).

I can certain make some screenshots, although I imagine savestates would be of more interest.  If you use the "Gens" Genesis emulator, I can definitely make all my Genesis Tricky 23 savestates available via PM or e-mail.

To achieve lose 1 would require the non-precision "Mayhem 10" trick to work.  I still haven't determined yet whether that trick fundamentally doesn't work in the Genesis version, or whether instead it's just a matter of changing the timing.  If the latter than lose 1 might still be possible.