Lemmings Challenges

[guest]

Yet another fewest-builders challenge:

Taxing 17(X marks the spot): Save 100% with only one bridge.

It doesn't use any glitches. It's fun to watch the lemmings go to the exit.

[ccexplore]

Finally confirmed this:

Taxing 10:  100% with no more than 3 builders

This is almost glitch-free.  I did use the Wild-15 glitch/trick, although just like Tame 20, you don't really need it, I just feel more comfortable using that glitch/trick to get what I needed done.  Using that glitch/trick doesn't result in any terrain modifications that can't be replicated in theory with no glitches and the exact same amount of skills the glitch/trick would've used up.

A closely related challenge, though slightly easier:

Tricky 6:  100% with no climbers, no more than 2 builders

[LemSteven]

I've got another fewer-builder challenge:

Taxing 18:  Save 98% with just one builder.

This one is actually pretty easy as long as you know the glitch that it takes advantage of.

Note that this is one of those levels in which the solution with the fewest builders is not the one that saves the most lemmings.

[ccexplore]

I've got another fewer-builder challenge:

Taxing 18: &#A0;Save 98% with just one builder.

This one is actually pretty easy as long as you know the glitch that it takes advantage of.

It's also pretty easy to guess what you did, since there aren't that many options when you're restricted to just one builder.

What bothered me more was why it works in the first place.  It would suggest that there's a gap in the one-way walls, yet examing the level in LemEdit yields no apparent gaps in the one-way-arrows interactive objects.

But then, by examining the data in the groundXo.dat files (which specify things like where the area of effect of each type of interactive object is located and how big), I finally found the rather surprising answer!  It turns out there is indeed a gap, at least on the PC version!  In fact, the data shows that (see this post for details), at least for graphics set #2 (Pink), but possibly also the other ones, the last 4 rows of pixels of a one-way-area interactive object are actually ineffective!  (What happens is that the area's location is shifted 4 pixels above where you expect it to be, so in compensation, the 4 rows of pixels above the visible area of the object is still one-way!)

This also probably helps explain why it's possible to seemingly bash through the one-way wall at its bottom in Wild 12, at least on the PC version (haven't checked others).  If my theory is correct, this can potentially affect a lot of other levels as well, including those people made for CustLemm!

[ccexplore]

the last 4 rows of pixels of a one-way-area interactive object are actually ineffective!

"Last 4" means the bottom 4.  Sorry for being unclear.

[ccexplore]

(What happens is that the area's location is shifted 4 pixels above where you expect it to be, so in compensation, the 4 rows of pixels above the visible area of the object is still one-way!)

Hmm, I think I need to emphasize this point a bit more.  It's not that you actually lose 4 rows of pixels of one-way.  It's still 32 rows total per object, just shifted 4 pixels above where it should be.

So since in most cases, a large one-way wall are built by stacking a bunch of one-way objects together with no gaps in between the objects, the 4 pixels of one-way that are ineffective in one object is compensated by the "extra" 4 pixels of one-way from the object immediately below.

Which is why the glitch is restricted pretty much to just the bottom 4 row of pixels of an entire one-way wall.  So perhaps it doesn't affect levels as much as I first imagined, but still something to look out for from now on.

[Shvegait]

Oooh. That glitch would explain a lot! I had run into this problem with one of my levels and had no idea why the one-way walls were not working. Thanks

[LemSteven]

I used that same OWW trick to save 98% on Wicked 1 in ONML.  The problem can easily be fixed in CustLemm levels, though: Just shift the object down four pixels.

There are just a handful of levels in the original games in which this glitch becomes a factor, though.

[ccexplore]

Yeah, I noticed the application in Wicked 1 too, but sadly this seems to about it for the standard Lemmings and ONML games.

Actually, if the terrain is a little different, the trick could potentially be used for Taxing 7 100%, but as it is now, it isn't even close.

[ccexplore]

Here's another fewer-builder challenge that is glitch-free:

Mayhem 17: &#A0;Save 100% using only 6 bridges. &#A0;Although, now that I think about it, it may be possible with 5 (I'll have to check). &#A0;It may be possible to lower the number even further with ccexplore's Tame 20 glitch, though.

I've confirmed the lowest number of builders you can get away with (at least on the PC) and still pass the level:

Mayhem 17:  Save 96% (77/80) using only the following:

2 climbers, 2 blockers, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 2 miners, and 2 diggers

In other words, I have lowered the number of builders down to 1, at the expense of not saving 100%.

This is not the Tame 20 glitch; in fact, I'm fairly sure you will not be able to attain a Tame-20-glitch type of solution, using only one builder, that passes the level even if you're allowed to use all the other skills given.  (But feel free to prove me wrong.)  You certainly won't be able to do it with the fewer number of diggers and miners allowed here.

Instead another glitch is involved.  Actually a fairly spectacular one, which unfortunately I definitely don't want to reveal at the moment.  Somewhat reminiscent of the Tame 20 glitch, but a bit crazier and more powerful.  Don't worry, I will reveal it eventually.  I'll say though that it is generally very hard to apply (much harder to apply than the Tame 20 glitch, for starters).

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About the skillset given above:  I'm pretty sure you can trade in a miner in place of one of the diggers (so 3 miners + 1 digger instead of the 2+2 above).  Using a 2nd digger might be slightly easier for timing-precision purposes, but then again it might just be a matter of practice in either case.

About 96%:  conceivably there is a small possibility that you can achieve 97% with this basic solution, but it'd be extremely difficult to plan out a viable setup.  You definitely cannot save more than 97% with this solution idea without using additional builders, barring as yet unknown glitches.

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As for a 100% solution using the least number of builders (all glitches allowed), it looks like you need 3 builders, and I do have such a solution in mind involving just the Tame 20 glitch, but I haven't tested it out yet.  If that 3-builder solution works, it is straightforward to convert it into a 2-builder solution that saves 98%.

Given the new glitch I introduced here, I can't definitively rule out a 100% solution using only 2 builders, but it seems quite unlikely to me at the moment.

And finally, it looks like LemSteven's 5-builder solution is indeed the lowest number you can achieve for a glitch-free solution.

[ccexplore]

I should add that unlike some of the previous glitches, this one actually has the power to potentially affect nearly every lemming out, so indeed the crowd does not take a "conventional" path out when using this glitch.  As I said, it's kinda like Tame 20, although the glitch itself doesn't involve climbers.

Now let's see what it can accomplish on Taxing 4......

[LemSteven]

I might have thought of another glitch-free solution to Mayhem 17. &#A0;It will probably use fewer than 5 builders, but it definitely won't save 100% (It should save 97% if it works). &#A0;So 5 is still (and will probably always be) the minimum number of builders for a 100% solution without glitches. &#A0;I'll test it out this weekend.

Meanwhile, I may have come across another challenge involving fewer builders (this is actually an extension of one of Ahribar's challenges from earlier in the thread):

Taxing 11: &#A0;Save 100% with only 7 builders.

I have not yet verified that this actually works because I don't have Lemmings in my dormitory at school.&#A0; Based on what I did to turn the crowd around in Mayhem 17, it looks like it should work, though. &#A0;I should be able to find out for sure this weekend.

[Proxima]

Yeah, my challenge was nine builders, no climbers. If you allow climbers you can do it with even fewer builders.

(And whatever the minimum is on other versions, it will be one fewer on the Genesis, because there's one less pillar.)

[ccexplore]

Taxing 11: &#A0;Save 100% with only 7 builders.

I have not yet verified that this actually works because I don't have Lemmings in my dormitory at school. &#A0;Based on what I did to turn the crowd around in Mayhem 17, it looks like it should work, though. &#A0;I should be able to find out for sure this weekend.

Oh, I originally thought you used a blocker (that was later freed) when dealing with the crowd-control with Mayhem 17.

Now that you reminded me of that other way of builder-free crowd control, I need to review Mayhem 17 to see whether I can lower the number of builders while maintaining 100% and glitch-free, now that I can use one of the blockers elsewhere......

[LemSteven]

Oh, I originally thought you used a blocker (that was later freed) when dealing with the crowd-control with Mayhem 17.

I actually did use a blocker when dealing with the crowd in Mayhem 17, but I don't think it was completely necessary. &#A0;It just made the solution easier to pull off. There are two things that I can conceivably see going wrong with Taxing 11:

1. The lemmings break through the right side of the pillar (I used the blocker in Mayhem 17 to decrease the chances of this happening, but I think I got it once without the blocker).
2. &#A0;I run out of diggers before completing the level (Slight alterations to the method may prevent this).

Assuming it works (I'll try it out tonight), the solution will use 7 builders, 2 climbers, and several bashers, miners, and diggers.

Update: &#A0;The 7-builder solution to Taxing 11 is now confirmed! &#A0;It is annoyingly hard to execute correctly, but it's not the worst I've seen. &#A0;It took me about 10-15 tries to get it right. &#A0;Fortunately, the hardest and most critical part is at the beginning of the level. &#A0;My solution used 2 climbers, 7 builders, 1 basher, 4 miners, and 5 diggers, but it's probably doable with only 3 miners.