Lemmings Challenges

[guest]

But I don't think you have a Mac, do you?

[Proxima]

Does this mean you want me to e-mail you the 100% solution for Wicked 6?

Maybe; I'll decide at the time. If I can't find it on my own, probably.

[guest]

<Mayhem 10>Now improved to lose 3 (72/75, or 96%).

The basic concept of the solution is similar to lose 4.

Actually, it just occurred to me today that there are potentially two ways to do "lose 4".  So to clarify, the one I had in mind when I said "similar to lose 4" is the lose 4 solution that uses an exploder.  The other potential lose 4 solution does not use exploders, nor can it be adapted to a lose 3 solution as far as I can tell.

[LemSteven]

For the DOS and Amiga versions, here are the non-100% scores that I remember off top my head:

Classic 5 (The Magnificent Severn): lose 1
Classic 7 (So close but so far away): lose 1
Classic 8 (The Secret of LEMH): lose 1*
Sports 1 (Ceci n'est pas une pipe): &#A0;lose 2
Polar 7 (Snowed In!): lose 2
Highland 10 (EAT MY SHRAPNEL !!): lose 1

Here are some notable 100% levels:

Classic 4 (Tension Sheet, Good Idea)
Medieval 3 (ALL IN A KNIGHTS WORK!!)
Sports 6 (Double Trouble)
Space 2 (Perpetual Motion)

*Classic 8 (The Secret of LEMH) is also of note because on both the SNES and the Sega Genesis versions of the level (which is identical to the DOS/Amiga version), I was able to save 100%. &#A0;But in doing so I needed the ability to use the "have cursor track lemming" feature (it's like the right-click select in Cheapo), which seems to be absent in the DOS/Amiga version.

That being said, thru massive use of savestates I once did manage to achieve 100% on that level on the Amiga despite the lack of the track-lemming feature, but as it's running on an emulator I don't know what to make of it. &#A0;In any case, basically 100% is possible if you manage to get a whole crowd of lemmings to dig very very very close to each other. &#A0;If I have the patience I might try it on the DOS version some day.

The "lose 1" in Classic 7 uses an outrageous glitch (no exploders by the way!). &#A0;Actually it really isn't a glitch (Mike certainly asserted that it isn't)......more an abuse of an intended feature.

Of course! &#A0;(Runs upstairs and figures out the "Lose 1" in Classic 7 within ten minutes.) &#A0;Why didn't I think of that earlier?!

I also just figured out how to get the 100% on Space 2. &#A0;I've known about the other notable 100% solutions for a while now.

100% on Classic 8 appears to be much more elusive (at least in the PC/DOS version). &#A0;It would seem possible with the skills given, but I can't get it to work. &#A0;I make the first lemming a climber+floater, and the next nine climbers. &#A0;The first guy goes ahead and tackles the second half of the level. &#A0;The second climber digs slightly more than halfway across the wall. &#A0;The next five dig down to obliterate the left half of the wall, up to where the first digger started; all of them eventually hit steel. &#A0;The rest of the climbers dig on the right side of the wall, past where the first digger started. &#A0;I also use diggers to slow the next two guys coming from the entrance, as they would otherwise turn around.

The problem is that the five diggers that hit the steel will continue to climb up the rest of the wall, and fall too far off the right side of the wall. &#A0;They therefore must dig on the far right side of the wall, but there are already lemmings digging there. Lemmings 2 doesn't seem to like it when you try to assign two of the same skill real close to each other, and the lemming will simply not perform the action. &#A0;As a result, a couple of lemmings tend to fall too far off the wall because I can't get them to dig. &#A0;If I had two more floaters, this problem would easily be solved.

If I could get everybody digging correctly, I would get the lowest digger (the first one assigned) to mine after getting sufficiently below the steel to prevent the walkers from walking back to the left. &#A0;Unfortunately, I cannot do this until all of the climbers are past him, otherwise they will hit the wall, turn back, and be lost.

So for now, I still haven't found a way to save 100% on Classic 8.

[guest]

The problem is that the five diggers that hit the steel will continue to climb up the rest of the wall, and fall too far off the right side of the wall. &#A0;They therefore must dig on the far right side of the wall, but there are already lemmings digging there. Lemmings 2 doesn't seem to like it when you try to assign two of the same skill real close to each other, and the lemming will simply not perform the action.

Yep, that's the problem.  I'm going to have to review the Amiga solution and see.

I think the basic problem is that the cursor always highlights someone that's doing something, and unlike Lemmings 1 there is no "hold right mouse button to select walkers" feature, so it keeps trying to assign the skill to the existing diggers instead of the walker.

The only way around it would be to place the cursor really carefully so that it selects only the walker, most likely via the edge portion of the cursor square.  That might be how I managed to get it to work in the Amiga.  I guess I'll review it again later today (thank god for savestates).

[guest]

The only way around it would be to place the cursor really carefully so that it selects only the walker, most likely via the edge portion of the cursor square. &#A0;That might be how I managed to get it to work in the Amiga. &#A0;I guess I'll review it again later today (thank god for savestates).

Well, reviewing my Amiga savestates wasn't too illuminating.  But thru experimentation on the Amiga, I did now come up with a systematic way, different from the random luck that prevailed on the Amiga savestates,  to deal with the problem.  In fact, it is so effectively that I think you can easily squeeze more than 10 diggers in the space provided.  It is also fairly simple, so I don't know why I didn't think to try it earlier.  What I said above still applies by the way.

But this is only the Amiga emulator, so I still need to try it on DOS and see.

[guest]

But thru experimentation on the Amiga, I did now come up with a systematic way, different from the random luck that prevailed on the Amiga savestates, &#A0;to deal with the problem. &#A0;In fact, it is so effectively that I think you can easily squeeze more than 10 diggers in the space provided.

Hmm...well, it kinda works in the DOS version too, but unfortunately not as effective as squeezing more than 10 diggers in.  In fact, I could barely do 7, which fortunately I think is still good enough for the 100% solution.

It is certainly much more difficult on the DOS version, partly because the animation in general seems to go noticeably faster than the Amiga version.  One critical element to my method requires you to basically step through the motions frame-by-frame, in order to turn the next walker into a digger as soon as the game allows.  The DOS version's faster speed makes this much more error-prone.

Also, even if your reflexes and timing are perfect so that you can step thru the motions frame-by-frame continuously and at ease, it seems that in the DOS version, the way the cursor is handled still doesn't allow you to squeeze the lemmings as close together as the Amiga could.  I think you could get maybe a minimum of 3-4 pixels going from one digger to the next [eg. 3 meaning if one digger's at (x,y), the next one's at (x+3,y)].

Because of this difficulty and the lack of savestates, I decided to, instead of going for the full solution, to do a test to see if my method works (and how well it does).  That alone still took me nearly an hour X_X, but here are the results:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/classic8_test_a.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/classic8_test_b.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/classic8_test_c.png

The screenshots demonstrate that squeezing 7 in is possible, and is possibly the best you can do.  Although I did make a slight mishap somewhere, so I can't completely rule out squeezing 8 in, but it's doubtful to say the best.  7 if I recall correctly is still enough for 100% though, if you do the rest of the level correctly.  (On that note, there are some slight differences between how I did it and how LemSteven's doing it.)

So while I still haven't succeeded, it at least looks plausible on the DOS version, but clearly it will be very difficult and frustrating.

=====================

Oh, the method.  It's nothing really.  The diggers are placed from left to right.  Each time you place a digger, pause the game and move the cursor to the right pixel-by-pixel until the cursor just stop highlighting the current digger.  Then do the frame-by-frame until the next lemming walks close enough to "activate" the cursor, then immediately assign him the digger.  Repeat.  Note that if done correctly, all lemmings should end up starting digging at effectively the same altitude.

This is naturally the best you can squeeze everyone together, barring some unknown glitches/features.  A reminder that unlike Lemmings 1, in Lemmings 2, you can assign skills while the game is paused, but the game immediately unpause when you do that or actually, whenever you click the mouse anywhere.

[guest]

Well, here's my closest attempt so far at 100% on classic 8:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/%20classic8_ifonlyididntscrewup.png

The sad thing is, it would've been a successful 100% attempt, except I later screwed up something stupid with the trailblazer (it hit metal while digging). X_X

But this is enough to convince me that 100% on DOS Classic 8 is definitely well within reach, and although the work-week has begun again, maybe at the upcoming weekend (or sooner) I'll try again.  It seems that with sufficient practice, doing the frame-by-frame thing is no longer as difficult as it once seems.

I know the 2 diggers that ended up on the top right corner of the wall look a little suspicious.  I cannot explain why it was able to climb thru.  Maybe just like a 1-pixel overhang does not matter in Lemmings 1, a small amount of overhang does not stop climbers in Lemmings 2.  I certainly didn't plan it that way, it was more a mishap but it apparently works out anyway.  Try it yourself if you don't believe me.

Tip:  the way to do frame-by-frame is basically as follows:  pause the game, click somewhere (possibly on a lemming if you want to assign skill) to unpause, then immediately press "P" to re-pause the game again.  With sufficient practice to time the click and the "P", you will repause the game exactly 1 frame later.  You basically press "P" almost simultaneously with the click.

[guest]

Ugh, the is the capital letter p.  I pressed "post" when I meant "preview".

Oh, and here's a clickable URL:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/classic8_ifonlyididntscrewup.png

[LemSteven]

I got it! B)

I made a few slight changes to my method on Classic 8 and managed to save 100% on the first try!

Here's my detailed solution (highlight to read)

1. &#A0;Make the first ten lemmings climbers
2. &#A0;Make the first guy dig through the left side of the wall.
3. &#A0;The second guy digs slightly more than halfway across the wall.
4. &#A0;The thrid, fourth, and fifth guys dig from left to right to obliterate the left half of the wall.
5. &#A0;Make the sixth guy float. &#A0;He will be the trailblazer.
6. &#A0;The first non-climber digs twice on the steel to slow him down.
7. &#A0;The rest of the climbers all dig on the right half of the wall.
8. &#A0; After the diggers on the left hit steel, they must also dig on the right side of the wall (this is the tough part).
9. &#A0;Make sure the trailblazer bashes through the dark brown wall.
10. &#A0;Make the lowest digger bash, not mine, after all of the climbers are past him.
11. &#A0;Make the trailblazer dig and mine to the exit.
12. &#A0;Build a bridge to get up the large "step."

In the old solution, I made the first lemming the trailblazer and I made the lowest digger mine instead of bash. &#A0;This gave him less time to finish mining before the diggers started catching him and turning around. &#A0;To fix this problem, I placed this particular digger farther to the right, which subsequentially gave me less space in which to bunch up the diggers.

By making the sixth lemming the trailblazer instead of the first, I created a larger vertical gap between the lowest digger and the ones on the right side of the wall. Furthermore, a basher moves horizontally faster than a miner, so that bought me even more time. &#A0;As a result, I could place the lowest digger farther left, thus providing more space to place the diggers on the right.

[guest]

Good job!    Certainly save me from having to retry that level again.  

Of course, all the changes to your solution is exactly what I meant when I said earlier:

if you do the rest of the level correctly.  (On that note, there are some slight differences between how I did it and how LemSteven's doing it.)

Actually, one thing that somewhat surprises me is you said you sent all 10 climbers up.  This would seem to imply that you have 8 diggers squeezed together at the right side of the wall.  While I won't rule that out as impossible, it certainly is somewhat surprising to me that it could be done.  (A DOSBox vs. real DOS difference?  Hope not.)

In my solution, as my various screenshots have shown, I sent only 9 climbers up, leaving 7 for the right side of the wall.  You can delay the 10th and 11th lemmings sufficiently by making the 11th dig once and the 10th dig 2 or 3 times.

[guest]

You can delay the 10th and 11th lemmings sufficiently by making the 11th dig once and the 10th dig 2 or 3 times.

Of course, to do that, you probably also want the lemming who dig down the left edge of the wall to start digging as soon as he finishes climbing (if done right, he will be located basically with the left edge of the wall at the center of his feet/body).

[LemSteven]

Actually, one thing that somewhat surprises me is you said you sent all 10 climbers up. &#A0;This would seem to imply that you have 8 diggers squeezed together at the right side of the wall. &#A0;While I won't rule that out as impossible, it certainly is somewhat surprising to me that it could be done. &#A0;(A DOSBox vs. real DOS difference? &#A0;Hope not.)

That's correct.  I did manage to get 8 diggers on the right side of the wall.  I actually didn't find it too difficult to do, either.  I think a couple more may have even been possible, because I didn't quite get everybody digging as close together as I could have.  This does not surprise me, though, because I was able to fit 6 diggers in a smaller space using my old method.

BTW, I do run Lemmings in real DOS (In fact, I had never heard of DOSBox until I started reading this forum).  It's still running on the same machine that I first played it on ten years ago.

[guest]

That's correct. &#A0;I did manage to get 8 diggers on the right side of the wall. &#A0;I actually didn't find it too difficult to do, either. &#A0;I think a couple more may have even been possible, because I didn't quite get everybody digging as close together as I could have. &#A0;This does not surprise me, though, because I was able to fit 6 diggers in a smaller space using my old method.

Oh ok.  That sounds kinda similar to the Amiga emulator, where I think I said you can probably squeeze more than 10 diggers.

I'm less concerned about this level since I've shown that it should be doable on DOSBox even with only 7 diggers on the right.  But it does make me a little nervous about how reliable my results for other levels are, in particular the timing sensitive Sports 1.  (Though at least I was able to achieve the same score on that level on both DOSBox and Amiga, despite having to use different solutions in each.)

[geoo]

Medieval 3 and Space 2 are both doable with 100%.
Since this thread calls "Lemmings Challenges" I challenge you to do that
I have to say, Space 2 is really tough.
(If you don't want to try, tell me and I'll release my screenshot and descriptions here.)
Also, I found a neat backdoor for Outdoor 7 using none of the shimmiers, no floater and only 3 of the jumpers (and some of the other skills).
Maybe that is a nice challenge for you?