Lemmings Challenges

[guest]

<continue from above>

Another thing I want to mention is that, with this method, there is a conceivable possibility (but not even remotely verified) to achieve 17/21.  But it does require some extremely tight timing to hopefully (wishfully?) work itself out, and without savestates or a way to slow the game down a lot, I just don't have the patience now to pursue a possibility that might end up impossible.

Anyhow, the ONML challenge total lemmings lost is now down to 87, for those who still keeps tally.

[guest]

Oh, some of you are probably wondering, why this crazy miner glitch?  Why not just mine a few strokes and then explode the miner normally?

Well, refer back to an earlier screenshot from the inferior 14/21 solution to Havoc 10:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/havoc10_A.png

You can clearly see that there's no way to get the bomber's explosion area low enough to trap the crowd without breaking thru the floor.

Another glitch worth pointing out that is used in the 16/21 solution, is that it seems if you have an 1-pixel overhang at the very top of a wall like this:

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as you would encounter during my solution to Havoc 10, a climber will be able to climb to the top despite that one-pixel overhang.  This is even true in the Amiga version.  This is the climber glitch I was referring to back at this improvement of one of Ahribar's challenge.  Some of you might also have seen something similar when doing the 100% solution for "Cascade" in Tricky.  (At any rate that's when I first remember seeing this climber glitch.)

[guest]

Another thing I want to mention is that, with this method, there is a conceivable possibility (but not even remotely verified) to achieve 17/21.

With a few starting moves slightly rearranged, 17/21 has now been verified, so:

Havoc 10:  save 80% (17/21)  B)

Timing is still somewhat tricky, but it's certainly not any worse than the timing in the old 14/21 solution.

This brings the total down to 86.

[LemSteven]

Havoc 10: &#A0;save 80% (17/21) &#A0;B)

Timing is still somewhat tricky, but it's certainly not any worse than the timing in the old 14/21 solution.

This brings the total down to 86.

Two months ago, none of us would have even dreamed that was possible!  Well done!

I am still working on the 100% solution on Wicked 6.  I've been able to save 98% for a long time, but I still need to work to get the left lemmings down without using any bombers.  I actually run into the same miner bug that Guest had problems with in my 98% solution!  I always solved it by getting somebody to fall down to the exit before the miner does.  He would build a bridge so that the miner wouldn't die.  Unfortunately, this builder ended up going over the exit, so I had to use many more builders to make sure everybody got turned around. I suppose this tactic doesn't work with the 100% solution because it requires more builders.

I actually haven't been playing Lemmings or ONML much recently.  I'm currently playing through The Lemmings Chronicles, looking for backroutes and alternate solutions for the levels.

One of the most interesting backroutes that I found actually qualifies as a challenge for those who have this game:
On Classic Level 28, save every lemming without using the spades hidden in the large wall.


BTW, does anybody have any high scores in Lemmings 2, Lemmings 3D, or Lemmings Revolution?  If not, I can post my best scores on those, too.

[guest]

I actually run into the same miner bug that Guest had problems with in my 98% solution!  I always solved it by getting somebody to fall down to the exit before the miner does.  He would build a bridge so that the miner wouldn't die.  Unfortunately, this builder ended up going over the exit, so I had to use many more builders to make sure everybody got turned around. I suppose this tactic doesn't work with the 100% solution because it requires more builders.

Hmm...actually it might, but it depends on how many more builders you need to get your method to work.

The thing is, applying the blocker trick I used for the 100% do have its own cost of builders, because the trick requires the miner to be at a certain phase of its animation when you apply the blocker.  This in turn requires you to use a bunch of builders to get the correct, desired mining path and starting mining position.  It's possible that maybe the same amount of builders is enough to implement your idea instead.  I just never really tried what you said because it sounds rather difficult and I didn't know how many build bricks you'd need to make the fall safe for the miner.

I could tell you though that my 100% solution uses up every single skill.  For the left side, I gradually reduced the amount of builders needed (because I needed to accomodate the right side as noted above), and so the final solution uses just (highlight to read) 2 miners, 1 blocker and 3 builders for the left.

BTW, does anybody have any high scores in Lemmings 2, Lemmings 3D, or Lemmings Revolution?  If not, I can post my best scores on those, too.

I have some scores for Lemming 2, but I don't think I ever really played thru every single level in that game, though I did play multiple versions (ie. for different systems) of the game.

For the DOS and Amiga versions, here are the non-100% scores that I remember off top my head:

Classic 5 (The Magnificent Severn): lose 1
Classic 7 (So close but so far away): lose 1
Classic 8 (The Secret of LEMH): lose 1*
Sports 1 (Ceci n'est pas une pipe):  lose 2
Polar 7 (Snowed In!): lose 2
Highland 10 (EAT MY SHRAPNEL !!): lose 1

Here are some notable 100% levels:

Classic 4 (Tension Sheet, Good Idea)
Medieval 3 (ALL IN A KNIGHTS WORK!!)
Sports 6 (Double Trouble)
Space 2 (Perpetual Motion)

*Classic 8 (The Secret of LEMH) is also of note because on both the SNES and the Sega Genesis versions of the level (which is identical to the DOS/Amiga version), I was able to save 100%.  But in doing so I needed the ability to use the "have cursor track lemming" feature (it's like the right-click select in Cheapo), which seems to be absent in the DOS/Amiga version.

That being said, thru massive use of savestates I once did manage to achieve 100% on that level on the Amiga despite the lack of the track-lemming feature, but as it's running on an emulator I don't know what to make of it.  In any case, basically 100% is possible if you manage to get a whole crowd of lemmings to dig very very very close to each other.  If I have the patience I might try it on the DOS version some day.

The "lose 1" in Classic 7 uses an outrageous glitch (no exploders by the way!).  Actually it really isn't a glitch (Mike certainly asserted that it isn't)......more an abuse of an intended feature.

In general the word "challenge" doesn't fit with Lemmings 2 levels, until maybe if you start restricting yourself to a subset of the skills given.

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I would try the other games if I can get hold of a copy and if it would run on Windows XP.  I've heard many problems people have in getting Lemmings Chronicles and Lemmings 3D to run for example.

[Proxima]

These aren't my scores, but a walkthrough I've read claims 100% on "Magnificent Severn" and "Eat My Shrapnel". Make of that what you will.

[guest]

Lemmings 2 is quite plagued by differences amongst the various versions, perhaps more so than Lemmings 1.

In the Sega Genesis/Megadrive, "Eat My Shrapnel" can be done 100% because the wall that you normally have to bomb thru does not reach all the way to the top, so it is possible for a lemming to go over the wall instead in that version.

I'm less sure about the Magnificent Severn.  Perhaps it was talking about the SNES version?  (Most of the levels are altered in the SNES version, generally becoming easier.)

[guest]

I'm less sure about the Magnificent Severn.

I went back to GameFAQs and see that indeed someone recently have contributed a new solution for that level that supposedly saves everyone.

But I suspect again that this might be a Genesis-only solution, since there's a part about walking on top of the ceiling.  Given how "Eat My Shrapnel" also suffered from something similar on the Genesis version, I don't think the same solution would work on the DOS/Amiga.  But I guess I could try it when I have time.

[Proxima]

Lemmings 2 is quite plagued by differences amongst the various versions, perhaps more so than Lemmings 1.

Which brings up another question (thanks for explaining about those solutions, btw) -- which levels on Lemmings 1 and ONML seem to be 100%able in some versions but not others? Offhand I can only think of Taxing 6 and Wicked 6, of the ones you've discussed in this topic, but you're the one that's done most of the solutions, so you will probably remember better than me.......

[guest]

Just when you think there couldn't possibly be more improvements:

Mayhem 10: Lose 4

Now improved to lose 3 (72/75, or 96%).

The basic concept of the solution is similar to lose 4.  But, in order to get the landing place ready more quickly, yet another glitch is needed.  A build-on-thin-air type of glitch as it turns out.  (But before your imagination goes wild, no, you cannot turn falling or floating lemmings directly to builders under any circumstances as far as I know, so that's not it.)

Generally, I disclose all glitches used.  I will still do so here, but for those who actually wants to figure out what it is by themselves, here's a hint instead:

Climbers apparently always transition to walkers when they finish climbing.

For a more thorough disclosure of the glitch, see

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/mayhem10.txt

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The solution is still tricky though even after you know what the glitch is.  And in fact there's another technique (this one not a glitch) involved, which provides a way to effectively "speed up" the building so the landing place is ready sooner.  That technique alone though is apparently insufficient, hence the use of the above glitch together with the technique.  Details/screenshots/walkthrough of the solution available upon request.

This brings the total down to 63 for Lemmings 1.

[guest]

Which brings up another question (thanks for explaining about those solutions, btw) -- which levels on Lemmings 1 and ONML seem to be 100%able in some versions but not others? Offhand I can only think of Taxing 6 and Wicked 6, of the ones you've discussed in this topic, but you're the one that's done most of the solutions, so you will probably remember better than me.......

Well, actually, I've mostly concentrated on improving the scores reported by LemSteven, so there are a large swath of 100% solutions I haven't even bothered trying seeing that LemSteven have gotten it.

And of course, there are many versions of Lemmings out there.  I've only played mostly on the PC version, so I'm not really yet authoratative when it comes to other versions of the game.

Off top of my head, for Lemmings 1 I'm fairly positive Taxing 6 is the only one that's 100%-able on the PC but does not appear to work on the SNES (timing differences).  I've also heard though that on the Sega Genesis (or is it Game Gear) version, Tricky 23 can be 100% because the pit is less deep, allowing you just build directly out of it.

Wicked 6 still remains an open question, so I disagree with your assessment above at this point.  First of all, the "glitch" might not be unique to the PC version.  Second of all, LemSteven might have possibly another way to handle the right side of the level without using the glitch that I used.

If I remember correctly, none of my 100% solutions I found in ONML require any sort of glitches/weirdness, except Wicked 6 (though Wicked 20's 100% does technically dig away a little bit of steel, but not for the sake of getting rid of the steel per se.)  So barring some unknown timing differences, they should work elsewhere too.  And timing differences should only affect (if at all) wild 12 and/or havoc 17.

That's all I really remember right now.

[Proxima]

Thanks though that wasn't meant to be an "assessment" as such..... just pointing out that it remains unconfirmed; whereas many of your solutions you can know without testing that they should work on all versions. I'll test those two on the Mac (and Genesis Tricky 23, since you mentioned it) as soon as I get home..... which won't be for a while

[guest]

I'll test those two on the Mac (and Genesis Tricky 23, since you mentioned it) as soon as I get home..... which won't be for a while

Well, you had heard the Taxing 6 solution from LemSteven.  Does this mean you want me to e-mail you the 100% solution for Wicked 6?

[guest]

By the way, when you get around to confirming stuff on the Mac, it would be cool if you can check whether that crazy glitch I used for Havoc 10 works on the Mac.

I don't need you to actually confirm 17/21 on the Mac, just the glitch itself.  Basically check and see if you can duplicate this screenshot I posted earlier, from Tame 8:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/stopminingbeforebreakthru.png

[JM]

That is just easy.