"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[mobius]

Don't remove any solutions from Dolly Dimple. One of the coolest things about that level is finding out how it has so many solutions after you solve it for the first time; it's so hard for new comers.

[Proxima]

The proposition wasn't to remove any solutions, but to make one of them harder, so that solvers would be less likely to find that one. And again, this is only on the table at all because I noticed the duplication with Worra load of old blocks.

However, I've just taken another look at Worra load, and it can also be solved with a solution more or less identical to the "under the platform" solution to Dolly Dimple, so the whole question is rather pointless So Dolly Dimple won't be changed.

I think that wraps up the de-backrouting discussion; it's still open for anyone to make further comments / suggestions, but I'm happy with the conclusions we've reached, and I don't know of any other levels that need work. Just to be open about everything, I should mention that I've made slight touches to a couple of other levels:

Steel Block Party: Moved the steel under the entrance one pixel right, preventing digging on the very edge without using a basher, which would trivialise the level.

Acrophobia: Moved the exit platform down a bit so you can't fall safely onto it from the bottom of the terrain above.

[Proxima]

Sorry, I didn't manage to get the update done over the weekend after all. I'll try to get it done as soon as possible. To make this easier, I'm reposting the list of talismans, now with bronze, silver and gold indicated:

List of talismans

Get a little extra help: Save 100% with only builders (reverting the level to have 10 builders)
Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: Save 100% with no builders
A Beast of a level: Save 100% with 2 of each skill
Lemmings in the attic: Solve with no builders
The Crankshaft: Save 100% with no builders
Turn around, young lemmings: Save 100%

A Spot of Bother: Save 100% with no builders
DON'T PANIC: Save 100%
Perseverance: Solve with no diggers
Cascade: Save 100%
And then there were four: Save 100% in 2 minutes

LEMTRIS: Save 100% with no bashers
Flow Control: Save 15/21 or more
KEEP ON TRUCKING: Save 100%
Postcard from Lemmingland: Solve with no floater
ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
I have a cunning plan: Solve with no builders
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
Across the Gap: Solve with 1 builder
ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%

The Lemming Funhouse: Save 100%
If at first you don't succeed...: Save 100% with 1 basher
Upside-down World: Save 100%
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Poles Apart: Save 100%

It's hero time: Solve with no climber
Which one are you trying to get?: Solve with no floaters
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
Scaling the Heights: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
The Great Lemming Caper: Solve with no blockers
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers

In case anyone wants to give more feedback on talisman rankings, I'll add that the ones I'm least certain about are these:

Spoiler

If at first you don't succeed...: Currently ranked bronze, although Nessy considered it silver. I would consider ranking it up, but I don't think any of the currently silver ones deserves to be ranked down.
Which one are you trying to get?, Creature Discomforts: These are the two I'm least certain about ranking as gold. If we were to rank one or both down, the ones I'd most consider ranking up are DON'T PANIC, KEEP ON TRUCKING, Scaling the Heights, LEMTRIS and Across the Gap.

[Proxima]

Okay, I just need to have another look over the recent changes to make sure everything's in order, and then I'll post version 0.4.0.

I replayed all the talismans I was doubtful about, and decided that Which one are you trying to get? does not deserve to be Gold. I've downranked it, and upranked LEMTRIS in its place. (Of the others I listed as potential Gold candidates, I'm now convinced that DON'T PANIC, Scaling the Heights and Across the Gap don't belong there. I'm less certain about KEEP ON TRUCKING, which is very hard -- but NeoLemmix's skill shadows help a lot.)

EDIT: Akseli says KEEP ON TRUCKING should definitely be Gold, so... I don't know any more

[Proxima]

Okay, version 0.4.0 is here! This is the first version to include talismans, and is therefore fully playable and fully featured! Not everything is necessarily final, but this is still a huge step towards getting the pack finished.

Since I couldn't decide about the last gold talisman, I've upranked KEEP ON TRUCKING for now and put up a poll for which to downrank in its place (including the possibilities of downranking KEEP ON TRUCKING itself, or just going with nine gold talismans). Just to make things perfectly fair, I've included all the currently gold talismans, even though there are some that I feel certain should remain gold. We'll see how the voting goes

Other changes in 0.4.0:

* Included a MOD of the Sunsoft Special music (posted by Wafflem earlier in this very topic, so I'm sorry I missed it), reducing the filesize again.
* Let's go camping: I've finally gotten round to including the fixed version (no digger, 1 extra basher).
* Tension Sheet, Good Idea: Included bsmith's reduced version, cutting down the amount of bashing time. Since the water in the middle is gone in this version, there's also one fewer builder.
* If at first you don't succeed: Included bsmith's version with extra steel.
* Fixed the music rotation so the six ONML tracks are in the Amiga order.

There are a few things remaining to decide. I'll invite discussion on the forum first, and if necessary, put up further polls. I don't want to take too long over any of these, as we are so close to having the pack finished!

* Is everyone happy with the decisions made so far? I know there are some disagreements, especially over ordering and talisman ranking, but we can't perfectly satisfy everyone, so does everyone at least feel the decisions have been made fairly and reached a reasonable compromise?
* Dirt levels originating from Genesis lemmings: Should we keep these in the dirt_md set with its distinctive colouring, or change them to the standard dirt set? Nepster has said that dirt_md will be included by default in new formats NL, so this is purely a matter of aesthetic preference.
* Levels appearing in both Genesis and ONML: which version should we use? There was a little discussion of this earlier in the topic, but all that was concluded was that we should not decide on the basis of graphic set balance (because all the sets in question are close to balanced anyway) but aesthetic preference again. We could use Genesis for some of these levels and ONML for some others.
* Any other miscellaneous changes to levels? Under this heading come things like bsmith's change to Tension Sheet, anything that improves the playing experience without being a drastic change to the level. A couple that have come up so far:
** Move the exit to the far left on Snuggle up with a lemming?
** Remove the pointless and rather ugly OWW on Cascade?
** Remove decorative terrain at the edges of levels? Alternatively, restore decorative terrain on levels where namida has already removed some?

That's quite a lot, but I hope people will chime in with their opinions

[Nessy]

* Is everyone happy with the decisions made so far? I know there are some disagreements, especially over ordering and talisman ranking, but we can't perfectly satisfy everyone, so does everyone at least feel the decisions have been made fairly and reached a reasonable compromise?

I am happy with all the decisions made so far.

* Dirt levels originating from Genesis lemmings: Should we keep these in the dirt_md set with its distinctive colouring, or change them to the standard dirt set? Nepster has said that dirt_md will be included by default in new formats NL, so this is purely a matter of aesthetic preference.

I really don't have a preference for this one, but if I had to choose my personal aesthetic preference would be to have the dirt_md style for the Genesis dirt levels because that was how it was in the original version and I want to keep those aesthetics.

* Levels appearing in both Genesis and ONML: which version should we use? There was a little discussion of this earlier in the topic, but all that was concluded was that we should not decide on the basis of graphic set balance (because all the sets in question are close to balanced anyway) but aesthetic preference again. We could use Genesis for some of these levels and ONML for some others.

* "Time Waits For No Lemming" / "Lunch Time"

* "The Stack" / "Keep All Enemies Out"

* "ROCKY VI" / "Watch Right And Left"

* "Dolly Dimple" / "Dangerous Balcony" : Even though Dangerous Balcony may be more visually interesting I say Dolly Dimple in its brick style is too iconic for me despite its minimalism.

* "Worra Load Of Old Blocks!" / "Leftovers Are Not Always A Waste"

* "And Now The End Is Near" / Exodus!

* Any other miscellaneous changes to levels? Under this heading come things like bsmith's change to Tension Sheet, anything that improves the playing experience without being a drastic change to the level. A couple that have come up so far:
** Move the exit to the far left on Snuggle up with a lemming?
** Remove the pointless and rather ugly OWW on Cascade?
** Remove decorative terrain at the edges of levels? Alternatively, restore decorative terrain on levels where namida has already removed some?

* I say don't move the exit in Snuggle Up With A Lemming. It might be too much of a change.
* I have no objections to taking out the OWW in Cascade. It doesn't really add anything to the level.
* I would leave the decorative terrain alone: if namida took it out in a level then leave it out and if he didn't take it out then leave it alone.
* I personally do not like the change made to Tension Sheet: Good Idea. There was just something about the water pit in the middle that even though it didn't add anything to the level I liked it there. However, I would just leave the changed version there, as I'm probably the only person with this opinion. The functionality of the level is there and that's the most important part.

[bsmith]

Overall I am satisfied with the decisions so far.

-Talismans-
For the gold talismans I am torn between demoting LEMTRIS, Have a Nice Day, and Creature Discomforts; the others certainly all belong at the gold level.  I went with Creature Discomforts in the poll.

-Let's Go Camping-
I think Let's Go Camping still has a backroute: Block with the first lemming somewhere to the right, one lemming exits and the builds over the exit and heads to the left to turn around and bash under everything including the blocker.  Stopping this route is as simple as extending the steel on the left side of the acid pit to meet the top of the terrain.

-dirt_md-
Regarding dirt_md, I think all the dirt levels should have a consistent look.  All four original graphic sets have an _md version, it just happens that the two dirt styles are the only pair that has a readily visible difference.  If people really want to see the Genesis dirt style we still have the Extra Levels nxp.

-Genesis remakes-
For the Genesis remake levels I found a difference in "Worra Load Of Old Blocks!" / "Leftovers Are Not Always A Waste".  In Worra, it is possible to do a Dolly Dimple splatform; the turnaround builder needs 23 bricks to hit his head, using 2 builders.  But in Leftovers it takes 25 bricks, adding a third builder; this makes the Dolly solution impossible.  We had already debated changing Dolly Dimple to distunguish it from Worra but decided to leave it be since both solution methods work in both levels.  On that basis I say we choose 'Worra Load of Old Blocks' over 'Leftovers Are Not Always A Waste',

I assume that the six pairs Nessy listed are the only pairs.  Then the only other difference in preference that I have is to choose "And Now The End Is Near" over "Exodus".

-Other Changes-
For Snuggle up to a Lemming, I recall a suggestion to remove the big middle structure to shrink the level.  The tower-like structure on the far left (including the base) then would be placed to the left of the exit leaving a level that is about 1.5 screens long.  That is a change I think is suitable.

I am fine with removing the unnecessary OWW in Cascade.  The stuff to the left of it could also all be trimmed.

I think that if there are any other changes to levels it would be cutting out some of the extraneous terrain on what often times would be one-screen levels.  Namida did some of that when making the various nxps, sometimes right to the point to contain the level in one screen; Downwarldy Mobile Lemmings is an example.  I think that in general we could do that for some of the larger chunks of extra terrain.

[Proxima]

-Let's Go Camping-
I think Let's Go Camping still has a backroute: Block with the first lemming somewhere to the right, one lemming exits and the builds over the exit and heads to the left to turn around and bash under everything including the blocker.  Stopping this route is as simple as extending the steel on the left side of the acid pit to meet the top of the terrain.

Thanks. I'll fix this in the next update.

-Genesis remakes-
For the Genesis remake levels I found a difference in "Worra Load Of Old Blocks!" / "Leftovers Are Not Always A Waste".  In Worra, it is possible to do a Dolly Dimple splatform; the turnaround builder needs 23 bricks to hit his head, using 2 builders.  But in Leftovers it takes 25 bricks, adding a third builder; this makes the Dolly solution impossible.

Not impossible; it just doesn't save 100%. Neither version of the level requires this.

One issue is that where the level is currently placed (Zany 28) the title will get cut off, resulting in "Leftovers are not always a wast". (This wasn't a problem on the original Genesis version, since it displays the level title on a separate line from the level number.)

One possibility is to use the Genesis level with the ONML title. Both titles are rather memorable, so it's hard to choose between them.

[SQron188]

My opinions here:

* Keep the Genesis levels in the dirt_md set as a homage to the originals as well as to have more variety.
* I prefer "Value Each Moment" and "Lunch Time"  in their Genesis versions and the rest in their ONML versions.
** "Snuggle up with a Lemming - the original, I guess? The change wouldn't exactly make the level any more demanding.
** OWW in "Cascade" - insignificant enough that I can't say. I didn't even notice it playing through the level for the first time.
** I'd like to have as much architecture kept as possible. It sounds trivial at first, but it can be an unexpected source of inspiration.

Can't say much more without having kept up with the topic up until this point and/or turning levels upside down at random.

[Proxima]

Thanks to everyone for contributing to the discussion. I'll post a summary of decisions, and re-list still open questions, after the voting closes.

One thing, quickly -- it looks like there's a strong consensus for "Lunch time". This level has a bit of extra terrain on top of the wall (compared to "Time waits for no lemming"), making it slightly easier. Should we keep or remove this?

[SQron188]

I'd say keep the terrain. IMO it's nicer and makes the central platforms look less like ordinary geometrical shapes.

[Dullstar]

In regards to dirt_md:

I'd say the md tilesets should be all or none; either all of the Genesis levels should use the _md tilesets, or none of them should. Fire and Marble blend in somewhat without a side-by-side comparison, but the remaining sets have obvious differences: Here are some examples using screenshots from the Genesis tilesets thread. (The levels are similar but non-identical, with the Genesis levels being modifications to the original levels made to show off the recolors I made).

In order from what I feel to be the most different to least different:

Dirt

Crystal

Pillar

Fire

Marble

It probably makes the most sense to change them to the normal sets. I like how some of the _md sets look (especially crystal - those are such nice shades of blue IMO) but I don't think it makes much sense to use two versions of the same tileset in one levelpack.

[namida]

One issue is that where the level is currently placed (Zany 28) the title will get cut off, resulting in "Leftovers are not always a wast". (This wasn't a problem on the original Genesis version, since it displays the level title on a separate line from the level number.)

The level number and title are displayed on seperate lines in the new formats version, so this won't be an issue once new formats goes stable.

[Proxima]

Okay. The vote ended inconclusively, which isn't a huge surprise given not everyone has had time to play all the talismans. I'm going to make an executive decision and downrank Creature Discomforts.

For the other questions, I've wanted to keep things moving quickly as we are very near the end of the project, so I've also asked those present in IRC and on Arty's stream for feedback, in addition to the responses above. The results are:

* Everyone seems happy with the ordering, backroute fixes and talisman choices. I've noticed one more backroute, which should be easy to fix.
* A decent majority prefer to use dirt_md for Genesis levels, so we'll go with that, and I'll re-import some levels for consistency.
* Everyone's fine with removing the one-way wall on Cascade.
* A substantial majority prefer keeping decorative terrain, even on the levels where namida has removed some. I also favour this, even though it means more work for me, so I'll try to get this done soon, though probably not for the very next update. However, I'm going to concentrate on the wide levels, like Turn around, young lemmings and Have a nice day; for levels like Downwardly mobile lemmings I think it is a good idea to keep to a single screen if this doesn't remove too much.
* Because we're keeping decorative terrain, I won't remove the middle structure on Snuggle up to a Lemming. I also won't move the exit since I don't think we have a majority in favour of that.

Genesis / ONML levels:

We have four votes on these so far, so I'm going to close discussion on the ones where all four of us agree:

* Lunch time (not Time waits for no lemming) (would still like feedback about the extra terrain)
* Dolly Dimple (not Dangerous balcony)
* ROCKY VI (not Watch right and left) (Watch right and left Part Two is in Redux, but that's okay; Redux is explicitly a "best of" pack so players will be able to figure out that Part One just didn't make the cut. Same applies to SEGA Four.)

For the others:

* We're split 2-2 on And now the end is near / Exodus, so I'll make that the next poll. I really hope Exodus wins, because I love the solemn, a little creepy, atmosphere it has in the sand set.
* Similarly, I strongly prefer Keep all enemies out over The Stack, so I'll hang on a little longer to see if anyone chimes in. If I'm alone in this then I guess I'll concede
* I can't decide between Worra load of old blocks and Leftovers are not always a waste, and I'd like to hear whether bsmith has changed his view after I pointed out the under-platform solution is possible on both levels. However, it does mean the gameplay is slightly different between the two, so I might marginally favour Worra load for that reason.

And now, there are a couple more issues I'd like feedback on:

* I spotted a slight backroute in Tension Sheet. The intended solution is to dig before the gap so the builder hits the terrain, which is a neat linchpin that I don't think appears anywhere else, at least not in this pure form. However, in NL you can mine into the steel after the gap to turn round. In this case, we know for certain which was intended because miners don't turn on steel in L2. One possible fix (assuming we keep bsmith's version) is to replace the second miner with a digger.
* It's all a matter of timing: Should we duplicate the middle hatch, restoring the 1-2-3-2 ordering of the original game? We could do this for all 3-hatch levels, but really I'm only worried about this level because it makes a crucial difference to the solution, although both versions are solvable.
* Special graphics levels: Keep the (full-length) Amiga versions, or use the reduced Genesis versions? Earlier in the topic, ccexplore suggested using Genesis for Beast and MENACING, since the full versions just add more trees / tentacles, but using Amiga for Awesome and BeastII, whose reduced versions do cut out part of the play of the level. I would agree, but I want to hear what everyone else has to say.

If I get a good amount of feedback on the above questions, we could have the entire project wrapped up and ready to go in another week or so! Huge thanks to everyone who contributed

[Nessy]

* My decision is still to keep Exodus.
* I'm perfectly fine with Keep All Enemies Out over the The Stack even though I suggested the latter in a previous post. Both of them are equally memorable.
* If Worra Load Of Old Blocks! is different gameplay-wise, even if it's by a little bit, then we should keep that one over the Genesis version.
* I say don't remove the decorative terrain in Lunch Time. It was mentioned that it made the level slightly easier but as long as the same core solution is there.

* For Tension Sheet I say we replace the second miner with the digger. That turnaround trick is too unique to have it be skipped.
* If the 1-2-3-2 change in It's All A Matter Of Timing is possible we should do it just for the sake of being true to the original design.
* I say to keep the unabridged versions of all special graphic levels. This is mostly a personal preference but I just feel if we are keeping the decorative terrain we should leave these levels untouched as well. However, at the same time if the suggested levels are shorten I have no objections.