"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[Nessy]

Sorry about that . Disregard everything I said

Okay, so I really like the ordering of the first two and three ranks, and the talisman as well especially the gold ones that can even give people familiar with those levels a good challenge.

[Proxima]

Thanks for the vote of confidence

So, here's version 0.3.4, with a draft ordering for rank 4. "Across the Gap" moved down to rank 3, with "I have a cunning plan" moving up.

I thought of three more talismans, which would give us a nice round 30. Of course, talismans are far from final; I'll open a proper discussion on those once we're done with ordering.

New talismans

Across the Gap: Solve with 1 builder
Which one are you trying to get?: Solve with no floaters
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%

As it's now been two weeks since the decision to have 160 levels, and no-one has suggested any other candidates for inclusion, I am now closing that discussion: we will stick with exactly the 160 levels currently in the pack.

[Proxima]

And here's version 0.3.5, with a draft ordering for all five ranks. Please give feedback and criticism so we can work towards a final ordering together.

After feedback from Wafflem's stream last night, I moved "With a little help from my Lem" up to Zany, moving "Don't leave any Lemmings" down. I've moved "Out, away from the tune" down so that "Which one are you trying to get?" could move up to early Lunatic -- its title is so long that it only displays correctly if it has a single-digit level number.

I'm not very happy about the heavy concentration of crystal-style levels in the middle of Lunatic (four out of six in levels 19-24), but mid-Lunatic does feel about right for all these levels, so maybe it's okay. However, please let me know if you feel any of these levels are misplaced.

[Proxima]

With Akseli's help, I've put up a new poll to ask what we should do with the level "Final impediment". When Nepster tried out my first backroute-fixed version (with the extra flamethrower and no other changes), he found a few different solutions (see his posts at the top of page 26), some of which were fiddly and inelegant brute-forcing. The level has a really beautiful solution, and it would be nice to enforce it, but I'm not sure whether we should make drastic changes. So, I'm putting it to the vote.

If we keep the skillset and make "no bashers, no diggers" a talisman, we can still make other slight changes to discourage brute-forcing; Nepster suggests making the steel under the exit a bit thicker. There would still be a variety of possible solutions. Alternatively, we could turn it into a pure puzzle level with a single solution by trimming the excess skills.

So, let's see what everyone thinks

[Proxima]

Meanwhile, here's version 0.3.6. Following feedback from Nepster in chat, I've moved "The Long Way Around" down to rank 2, returned "Don't leave any Lemmings" to rank 3, and moved "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground" and "Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility" a bit earlier within the rank.

I've also made a necessary fix to "Steel Block Party" that was mentioned much earlier in the thread, but hadn't been done up to now.

[bsmith]

I spent some time today going through 0.3.5 looking a individual levels.  There are some I feel needed changes, so I made some and attached the results in the zip file.

Konnichiwa Lemming-san, Haunted Botanical Garden, and Temporary Peace converted to use the regular Dirt set instead of dirt_md
Boulder traps changed to beartrap kind in Haunted Botanical Garden to make them visible
I made a different way of making the traps visible in Worra load of old blocks.  I think this looks nicer than Proxima's version.
A shortened version of Tension Sheet, should cut about a minute of mining/bashing time off the solution.
I really don't like the water where Proxima put them in If at first you dont succeed, so I made my version to block off the floor backroute.
A version of Lets Go Camping without the digger and some terrain changes to seal a backroute and make the trap on the right visible.

Also some talisman ideas of my own:

Spoiler

Perseverance: No Diggers
Come on over to my place: No Floaters
Great Lemming Caper: No Bashers
Flow Control: Save 10/21 lemmings
A Beast of a Level: either save 100% with 3 of everything or just complete the level with 2 of everything
Lets Be Careful Out There: save 27/30 with only 3 blockers and 3 builders
Spot of Bother: 100% without builders
Lemtris: 100% without builders
Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy: Assign skills to only one lemming
Menacing: Use no more than 7 builders
Time waits for no Lemming: save 28/30 without using floaters

[Proxima]

A Beast of a Level: either save 100% with 3 of everything or just complete the level with 2 of everything

No reason not to make the talisman 100% with 2 of each

[Flopsy]

Since I've very much stayed out of the discussion of the making of this pack, I've decided on LPing this pack on its completion.

I'm just announcing it on here for all to know, I know a lot of people in the IRC know this already (unless your name is mobius! )

I'm doing this so the community can see the resulting pack be played by a Lemmings player who is experienced and has never experienced the SEGA genesis levels or the exclusive levels before.

[Proxima]

I've terminated the previous poll (What to do with Final impediment?) because there was already a clear majority (5-1), in favour of keeping the skillset and having "no bashers, no diggers" as a talisman.

I'm going to take it that this view applies to other levels as well -- allow multiple solutions in general (but eliminate trivial solutions like on "Let's go camping"), and if there is a particularly elegant solution, reward it with a talisman.

The question, then, is where exactly we draw the line between "acceptable" and "trivial enough to be fixed". We've already decided this for a large number of levels, so I want to highlight a couple that are still undecided:

Dolly Dimple. The intended solution is almost certainly the one using the small underplatform (else why would it be there?). There are at least two other solutions: sending everyone over the side, or sealing off a corner and digging in the corner with the last lemming. All of these use interesting tricks, so I'm inclined to leave them all in.

If at first you don't succeed.... We've agreed to eliminate the floor route. bsmith's proposal still allows another solution that I find almost as trivial (bash two pillars, mine the third one). My proposal of adding water would eliminate this as well (we could add terrain blocks under the pillars, if them being in mid-air is seen as a big problem).

The Great Lemming Caper. Keeping one lemming back by making him a blocker seems to me to negate the concept of this level, so I would rather prevent it (by removing the blockers). It's almost certain that using a blocker wasn't intended, because (in original Lemmings) the level comes earlier than No added colours or Lemmings.

* * *

It's awkward to hold two discussions at once, but I don't want to lose the momentum going at the moment on talismans, so I've put up a new poll asking (roughly) how many talismans we should aim for. Mine and bsmith's lists between them have around 40 talismans, which is quite a lot, and we may want to rein them in and cull some of the less interesting ones. After this poll, I'll go through the lists, select the talismans that are most interesting and should definitely go in, and open up discussion on the others.

* * *

Discussion on level ordering is still open. In particular, I'd like feedback on the ordering of ranks 4 and 5, which have had the least feedback so far.

[Nessy]

Okay, so now I can talk about rank 4 and rank 5

Overall, I like the ordering. My only comment is the placement of This Corrosion in rank 5. I might be the only one with this opinion but I say to switch this level with No Added Colours Or Lemmings. I just personally feel like No Added Colours Or Lemmings is too early and more challenging than This Corrosion. I also like having Fall And No Life Part 2 as the last level because after much thought it's the best choice from a pure difficulty perspective.

For Dolly Dimple I agree about leaving the level untouched as the "other solutions" wouldn't cross a beginner's mind.

For If At First You Don't Succeed I say remove the "use two bashers and then use a miner under the stairs" solution. The water under the pillars should fix that, and I say to add a pillar in the water to make the pillars look like they are coming out of the water instead of floating above it, but it really isn't a big deal either way and it's just my personal design preference . As long as the backroutes are fixed.

For The Great Lemming Caper I say leave the skillset untouched. A beginner wouldn't think to hold the second lemming back with a blocker, and using that trick can make a good talisman like the one bsmith suggested (no bashers).

[Proxima]

One point I forgot while making the above post: The dig-step-dig trick used in the "over the side" solution appears again a few levels later as the main solution to Worra load of old blocks. So it may be worth taking it out of Dolly Dimple to make the levels more different. (And for the record, this was the solution I found first when I was solving the levels as a kid.)

If we decide to keep the blockers in The Great Lemming Caper, then "no blockers" (or perhaps "6 skills total") is much more worthy of being a talisman.

One more level where we should think about de-backrouting is Everyone's a hard nut, but I can't comment on this too much as I need to work out what all the different solutions to the level are, first

[bsmith]

Why is bash-bash-mine through the pillars a backroute for If At First You Don't Succeed?  When not using the bush under everything route (which I agree is a backroute) I solve this level by using the space between the last pillar and its right side stairs for containing the crowd and save 100%.  Difficultywise, this was Taxing 1 in the original game; its not supposed to be too hard.

One more level with a potential backroute is The Needs of the Many.  Bombing at the extact top of the climb allows a basher to go all the way through the terrain without needing to use the two builders to get on top first.  It is an easy fix by adding a little bit of terrain near the top, but it may also be a case of close enough to the intended solution.

I say definitely keep the blockers in The Great Lemming Caper.

It may be possible to enforce the solution that uses the subplatform in Dolly Dimple by changing the climber to a floater.

I can't say much about Everyone's a Hard Nut since I don't know what might have been intended.

[Proxima]

Let's drop the loaded term "backroute". In most cases we don't know the developers' intentions, so really, the concern is to do what we can to improve the quality of the levels, without changing them so much that they become our own levels. Of course, that requires a judgement call as to where to draw that line.

The bash-bash-mine solution to Taxing 1 is (in my view) worth taking out because it's a trivial solution to a level that's a much more interesting puzzle without it. It sounds like you're thinking of a more complicated variant, but you can just block with the second lemming, have a hero lemming go through the pillars and build over the gaps, then bomb the blocker. That's not Taxing difficulty; that's Fun difficulty.

Regarding Dolly Dimple: removing the climber would leave in the "seal off the corner" solution. (We could make "no climber" a talisman.) The change I'm contemplating is making the sides of the "box" taller so that the dig-step-dig solution doesn't work any more.

I'll post about Everyone's a hard nut once I've done some more investigating on that level. However, I'll say now that what I hope to enforce is one of the left lemmings travelling up to release the right lemming through the one-way wall.

[Proxima]

Okay, here's a replay for Everyone's a hard nut, showing one possible variation of what I take to be the intended solution. The two "pathfinder" lemmings each has a distinct role (on account of one being a climber and one not), and the third lemming is rescued through the one-way wall. I have a spare digger, which could be switched with a basher.

[Proxima]

Addendum concerning The Great Lemming Caper: Nessy has produced a video showcasing several different solutions to this level. On balance, I think it's best we leave it as a level with multiple interesting solutions rather than trying to enforce one; so I'm in favour of keeping the blockers and having either "no blockers" or "6 skills total" as a talisman.

However, I think we should still consider reducing the destructive skills to 2 of each, which still allows a wide range of solutions, but prevents the rather ugly brute-force solution where one lemming rapidly mines and digs at the start to get deep enough to turn the other.