"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[Proxima]

I made the same change on my own copy, and the normal solution still doesn't require all the skills -- depending on how the bomber and miner are placed, it can be done without the climber. However, getting the turnaround to work at all has become very fiddly compared to the level in original mechanics. Also, the backroute of bombing after this steel, then building over the small gap, is still there.

* * *

At the moment, since we seem to have reached an impasse, I've got Akseli to help me put up another poll to decide between the levels that have been proposed for removal and replacement. I've included "It's the price you have to pay" because it narrowly missed out in the last poll, and we have some new participants in the discussion, so it's worth checking how it stands now.

Please vote in the poll, everyone!

[Proxima]

Okay, thanks everyone for voting. That's helped make things a lot clearer. However, there is still one big decision I'd like to make.

The aim of this project was to compile the best original levels into a single pack that could be played through just like one of the original games. Naturally, that meant aiming for a much lower number than the 450-odd levels we started with, if for no other reason, because playing that many levels as a single game would be exhausting. And in any case, once we got started with discussing inclusions and removals, we found a great many levels that we were happy to let go of.

Still, there's nothing sacred about the number 150. I don't entirely like the idea of cutting out levels that some people have named as among their favourites. Also, looking again through the available levels, I think a couple of decent levels did badly in the original discussion because of backroutes or hidden traps -- things we can easily fix. So, because the votes were very close between all the levels, I am considering the following two options:

Option A: Stick with 150 levels.

In this case, there will be no further discussion of which levels to include: Following the vote, "A TOWERING PROBLEM" and "Five Alive" are out, "One way or another" and "Temporary peace" are in, and "Tension Sheet, Good Idea" stays in.

Option B: Enlarge the pack to 5 x 32 (160) levels.

In this case we'll need a certain amount of further discussion about which levels to include, but I don't want this to cause a long delay, so I'll make some decisions myself, wait a week or so to see what direction the discussion takes, and put up a further poll if necessary. At the moment, my inclination is to add the following levels:

Rank 1: I would add "Konnichiwa Lemming-san" and "Let's go to the moon" (both from Genesis), adding more steel to "Let's go to the moon" to prevent the backroute.
Rank 2: I'd still remove "A TOWERING PROBLEM" and "Five Alive", and add "One way or another" and "Temporary peace". That leaves Rank 2 needing two more levels. Most likely, I'd move "Tension Sheet" down and add "It's the price you have to pay".
Rank 3: I'd add "Have a nice day" and "Haunted botanical garden" (making the traps visible).
Rank 4: Not entirely sure, but there are a few "fairly good but nothing special" levels we could choose between.
Rank 5: I'd like to add "Final impediment" (fixing the backroute) and "Private room available". I know the latter is a bit annoying because of the digger assignments, but we could shrink the level so it's only 8 instead of 18. I think it has a unique concept that makes it a good inclusion.

* * *

So, how does everyone feel between these two options?

[bsmith]

I fully support option A using the results of the poll and keeping the pack at 150 levels.

[Proxima]

Okay, that's a substantial majority in favour of the 160-level option.

So, here's what we'll do. Firstly, "A TOWERING PROBLEM" and "Five Alive" are out; "One way or another" and "Temporary peace" are in. I'll post a new pack with the current selection of 150 levels, so it's easy for everyone to check which levels are in the pack at the moment.

Then, the floor is open for everyone to suggest levels they'd like to see re-added. I know we had a long discussion already, but given that we were sorting through 450 or so levels, there are bound to be a few that slipped through the cracks. This will be the absolutely final selection round, so I really want to make sure that everyone's had a fair chance to contribute to the selection. Maybe some of you have personal favourites that got overlooked; maybe we passed over some levels because of fixable problems like backroutes or hidden traps. However, for any levels that are suggested at this stage, I need to see a concrete proposal for how to fix any issues with the level.

After a week or two, depending on how discussion goes, I'll either make a final decision or, if necessary, put up another poll to decide which levels to include. If we can't find a good set of ten levels that feel like worthy inclusions, we always have the fallback option of sticking with 150.

[Proxima]

And here's Redux version 0.2.4b, with the current selection of 150 levels.

By the way, looking through the list, one more level that I think we might discard is Mayhem 28 "Mind the step". It's a long, builder-heavy level whose main challenge (in the original game) was just keeping the single lemming going for that long without making any slip-ups, which is pretty much trivialised by NeoLemmix features. At the time, it was somewhat interesting just for being so different from the rest of the game, but in Redux there are two other single-lemming levels (Lemming toast and Take care, Sweetie). Any feelings for or against this level?

[Proxima]

Here are my proposed fixes to "Haunted botanical garden" and "Final impediment".

Haunted botanical garden: Replaced all the boulder traps with visible bear traps. The level is rather easy, and I'm suggesting including it mainly for being an example of a level with great aesthetics rather than a great puzzle

Final impediment: Added another flamethower to interfere with the infamous backroute.

[Proxima]

It's the price you have to pay has been discussed a lot. Well, I finally went back to have a look at the level, and I've found what I'm pretty sure is the originally intended solution -- it uses the long walkway, all skills except the bomber, and is tricky enough to explain the level's placement in Havoc.

bsmith earlier suggested reducing builders from 3 to 1, to prevent the backroute shown on The Lemmings Encyclopedia, but this would also prevent my solution. bsmith, do you have a particular way to solve the 1-builder version in mind?

I wonder whether the level can be fixed to fully enforce the intended solution. I'm not sure that it can.

[Nessy]

I say take out Mind The Step as well.

As for It's The Price You Have To Pay the only way to really enforce the intended solution is to take out the bomber and add steel to force the miners to be used on the right side. I attached an example of where the steel would go below.

Unfortunately I don't really have any level suggestions. I know that's not what you want to hear, but I say that we allow the people that voted for the 160 pack to post their suggestions and give them a week or two like you said, and if they don't make a suggestion then we go back to the original 150 pack (or we go with all of your suggestions in the 160 version ).

[Proxima]

That version still allows the backroute where you hold the crowd between the first two pillars and use only one worker, though.

I think we'll definitely go up to 160 now; the fallback option was only if we couldn't find ten further levels that feel like they're worth including for their merit and not just to make up the numbers. I've had another look through the available levels, and now I'm pretty sure I can nominate a good set of ten even if we don't get any other suggestions. Of course, I'm still leaving the floor open for long enough that everyone has a chance to contribute.

[Proxima]

With thanks to Flopsy for teaching me how to use one of the editor's hidden features, here's my proposed edit to "Private room available" with half as many lemmings. Hopefully that tips the interest/frustration balance enough to make the level worth including?

[Nessy]

I like your edit to Private Room Available Proxima . My vote is to include it in the pack.

[mobius]

I like haunted botanical gardens too; I think it would go well pretty early in the game.

I like "Private room available" with half as many lemmings too. I think it'll work pretty well this way. Maybe even with only 10 lems but whatever. I always like the appearance of this one.

How about having a repeat (3rd repeat?) of Postcard from lemmingland; minus the miner? {oh yeah you could just make this an talisman...] nevermind.

[bsmith]

This is my one builder solution for It's The Price You Have To Pay.  A slight variation solves Nessy's variation.

[Proxima]

Thanks, I thought it would be along those lines. Thing is, that's only a slight advance on just solving the original level -- you have to come up with one small trick, mining and then bashing to make one basher go through two of the pillars. The intended solution (at least, I'm pretty sure of it) is a lot more interesting -- but very hard to enforce. I think it might be possible to enforce if NeoLemmix gets jumpers or shimmiers, but I don't want to start using new skills / features in this project. So I'd really rather leave it out, and maybe someone will use the intended solution in a level of their own.

Anyway, it's been a few days, I think it's time I put up a full list of my own suggestions for making up the numbers, to see if anyone supports or opposes any of them. Of course, the floor is still open for everyone else to suggest levels; I'll probably make a final decision this weekend.

Since ranks 1 and 2 have been ordered but the higher ranks are still fluid, it makes sense to look for two levels for rank 1, and then eight levels for the rest of the pack -- it's not important to select exactly two for each rank. For rank 1, my choices, as mentioned above, are Konnichiwa Lemming-san and Let's go to the moon. Konnichiwa is a good, simple puzzle level that introduces a useful trick (cutting through a bridge and later repairing it) by presenting a situation that looks impossible until you spot the trick. Let's go to the moon is a very nice-looking level, and the backroute under the steel is easily fixed.

* * *

For my picks for the higher ranks, I'll order them starting with the ones I most strongly want to include:

Havoc 2, Be more than just a number. This was on namida's first-draft list (page 3 of this topic) and then disappeared from Redux somewhere along the way, probably by accident, since it was never mentioned on anyone's list of suggested removals. It's a really good puzzle level and should definitely stay in.

Present 29, Private room available. Supported by Nessy and mobius. It's a highly memorable level with a unique solution concept, and the reduced version makes it much less frustrating to assign all the diggers.

Mayhem 25, Have a nice day. Middle-ranked in the last inclusion vote. A pretty fun mid-difficulty level with several viable routes. Has an interesting talisman (5 builders). As I mentioned when I first suggested including it, this level would have done badly in the vote-offs because it's not much harder than its repeat, which isn't a problem for Redux.

Present 30, Final impediment. The extra flamethrower kills the most glaring backroute; I'm not sure if there are others. If it is fixed, then it's a very hard and interesting puzzle to get back up from the ground level with the limited number of builders.

Sunsoft 20, Haunted botanical garden. Long before NepsterLems, this was inspirational as an example of what can be done with the original terrain to make a beautiful level. I believe it's worth including for that reason alone, even though the puzzle is mediocre. The hidden traps are not a problem as they can be replaced with visible traps without spoiling the aesthetics.

Tricky 27, Island of the Wicker People. This level hasn't been considered for inclusion yet, just because it wasn't on namida's first-draft list, compiled from levels that got through the first round of vote-offs. But it's possible that some good levels did badly in the vote-offs just because they were up against a strong group. Anyhow, Wicker People has always stood out as a pretty interesting and challenging Tricky level, and I'd like to see it included.

Taxing 1, If at first you don't succeed. This also missed out on namida's first-draft list, possibly because of the floor backroute, which we could fix. The main puzzle is pretty tricky and has a couple of good, satisfying solutions.

Sunsoft 8, Is this a circus? A neat puzzle where it looks like you don't have enough builders, until you challenge your first assumptions about where some of them go. It's true that the early Sunsoft levels have several puzzles with a small number of builders and miners, and Anxiety and Evacuating a coal mine (both already in Redux) are superior to this level. Still, I think it's interesting enough to make the cut.

Mayhem 26, The Steel Mines of Kessel. It's true that namida's talisman could simply be applied to the earlier version of this level. But ignoring the talisman, the level itself is a very different experience from its repeat, and definitely a good and challenging level (as long as we're not talking about the watered-down DOS version or the broken Mac version). The only thing against it is that Genesis has a similar level, Don't leave any Lemmings, which is also in the pack. So I wouldn't be too upset if this doesn't make it in.

Let me know what you think about any of the above levels

[Dullstar]

In regards to Steel Mines of Kessel: I believe it was bomber heavy, yes? I also think the original gave access to blockers. If it DOESN'T give blockers, then the level is trivialized by NeoLemmix and should not be included. Other than that, I don't really care.

I do like If at first you don't succeed, even with the floor backroute.