"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[Nessy]

Okay, I have finally played Fall and no life (Part Two).

It didn't take me as long to solve it as Lemmings' Ark, but I loved the solution . I have some new levels to add to my favorite official level list.

From a beginner's point of view this level would have no doubt been a major puzzle, especially considering the fact that not a lot of new players would have figured out what to do. Nothing in that level is immediately obvious. I say that Fall and no life (Part Two) would make a good Rank 5 level. Maybe not the last one, but I'm still unsure what I would put as a last level .

But I'm getting ahead of myself we aren't even discussing Rank 3 yet .

[nin10doadict]

Now I know I've solved "Fall and no life (Part 2)" before so maybe I just had a few subconscious memories about how to do it, but upon going back and trying it again it only took about five minutes. Not sure if I'd call that rank 5 material, especially since I had a skill left over. It's still a good level though, to be sure, and the time limit did actually force me to change my strategy somewhat.

[Proxima]

Can I see your solution? In case it's a backroute, we are going to fix backroutes in puzzle levels before releasing the pack.

[nin10doadict]

You apparently already fixed it. I played the Genesis version of 'Fall and no life (part 2)' which gives 2 miners. Taking one away removes the backroute because I needed that extra one to turn on the steel in order to make the time limit... So no need to worry about it.

[bsmith]

Finally got some time to look at the new ordering for Rank 1 and 2.  Rank 1 looks solid.  I don't think that Pop Your Top is a good rank 2 opener.   I would swap it with Spot Of Bother (currently #8).

A Towering Problem can be made to enforce what I think is the intended solution by making a few changes: Save 26/30; RR=60; skillset=4,1,4,1,1,0,0,0.

Five Alive seems really weak now.  If we do want to replace a level I would replace this with Have A Nice Day mentioned earlier.

[Nessy]

A Towering Problem can be made to enforce what I think is the intended solution by making a few changes: Save 26/30; RR=60; skillset=4,1,4,1,1,0,0,0.

With that skillset you can solve the level without the floater and blocker. Is that intentional?

I was neutral about Five Alive but I think that if we take advantage of the fact that you can use a bomber next to the first steel plate on the right to turn the lemmings around we can change the parameters to save 5/7, RR to 80, one climber, two bombers, and two builders it might be a decent Rank 2 puzzle. Just throwing that out there but I still think we can replace it with something else entirely .

[Proxima]

I'm not sure what use the floater and blocker would ever be... Looks like bsmith's intended solution is to climb-bomb the first three pillars, then send a climber over to bridge the gap from the right. Unfortunately, this can only be enforced if there are only 4 climbers, which means the bridge has to be placed precisely so the lemming climbs the wall after finishing.

And I still feel it's not much of a puzzle, just a timed bombers levels with a small, pretty obvious twist.

If we replace both A Towering Problem and Five Alive, we'll have to choose one more replacement level, in addition to Have a nice day. I have a few suggestions:

It's the price you have to pay: I don't like this level, but it narrowly missed out on the voting for inclusion, so maybe it should be included to be fair to everyone.
Temporary peace: This is a nice misdirection level that would definitely be nice to include.
One way or another: Another personal favourite that hasn't been considered so far. It's a little builder-heavy, but the two possible routes make a strong impression.

[Nessy]

...which means the bridge has to be placed precisely so the lemming climbs the wall after finishing.

It's a little precise but it's actually not too bad. I had a little bit of time so I did a quick demo of bsmith's version.

If we replace both A Towering Problem and Five Alive, we'll have to choose one more replacement level, in addition to Have a nice day.

My vote is One Way Or Another. However, Temporary Peace would be a good level starter or early Rank 3 puzzle.

[Nepster]

I am very happy with most of the second rank. Just three levels stood out as being too difficult and I wish they would be at the end of the rank: Just a Quicky, The run around and A spot of bother. I know that Nessy disagrees with my view on The run around and bsmith disagrees with my view on A spot of bother, so you probably shouldn't listen to my opinion here.

On the other hand, I agree with bsmith that PoP YoR ToP!! is not such a strong rank opener. I would have suggested It's Lemmingentry Watson, but given Nessy's opinion on it, perhaps The Stack is a better choice?

I'm not sure what use the floater and blocker would ever be... Looks like bsmith's intended solution is to climb-bomb the first three pillars, then send a climber over to bridge the gap from the right. Unfortunately, this can only be enforced if there are only 4 climbers, which means the bridge has to be placed precisely so the lemming climbs the wall after finishing.

And I still feel it's not much of a puzzle, just a timed bombers levels with a small, pretty obvious twist.

Actually I don't think you can enforce this solution at all, unless you lock the RR at 60. Bunching up the lemmings using RR 99 always creates enough time to build over the last gap before the crowd arrives.

[Nessy]

On the other hand, I agree with bsmith that PoP YoR ToP!! is not such a strong rank opener. I would have suggested It's Lemmingentry Watson, but given Nessy's opinion on it, perhaps The Stack is a better choice?

Actually, I think It's Lemmingentry Watson would be a good rank opener. My previous comment was just saying that I personally didn't think The Run Around was harder than that level, but I would like to hear other forum member's opinion on The Run Around because I might be the only one with that opinion.

[Nessy]

The problem I have with The Run Around is that a beginner can figure out the solution because they have experience with a level similar to The Run Around, which is Keep Your Hair On Mr. Lemming. Both require going over a one way wall, but in The Run Around it's more of a puzzle than just simply climbing over that one way wall. In It's Lemmingentry Watson the intended solution requires doing stuff that hasn't been done yet, and something that beginners might take some more time in figuring out.

I say let's keep The Run Around where it was in the original list.

[Proxima]

Okay, it looks like we are seriously considering removing some levels from the list altogether and replacing them. Since it will be easiest to do that all in one go, I've had another quick look through the higher ranks to see if there are any levels there I'd like to suggest cutting. The only one that stands out is Tension sheet, good idea, which is really large for very few skill assignments, and has very little puzzle interest -- the only thing is having to dig before building across the gap so the builder turns round, which is probably shown in other levels anyway, and it seems silly to keep such a large level just for that.

Does anyone else have feelings for or against keeping this level?

As for The run around (can we fix the title, btw? Runaround is one word), I remember the first time I played it, getting stuck for a while because I couldn't see how to break the climber out of his infinite loop, though playing it again, that part is not too hard either. Still, I wouldn't suggest it for the rank 2 opener because of that potential to get stuck; I think it's fine where it is at the moment.

One reason I'd like to keep It's lemmingentry, Watson where it is is for the symmetry of Quirky 2 being a repeat of Gentle 2. So I'd like to ask: what were people's reasons for not liking Pop Yor Top as the opener -- do you feel it's too hard, or that it's an uninteresting level and doesn't make a good first impression?

[Nessy]

I'm not against taking out Tension Sheet, Good Idea... personally I was never a fan of that level.

Yes, I think we should keep The Run Around where it is. After careful consideration, I think it's just the best place for it.

I think the reason why people don't want Pop Yor Top as the Rank 2 opener is because the solution is easier to execute with instant bombers. I don't think it's a bad level at all, but it probably wouldn't have had a good enough impact as the opener as another level could. If It's Lemmingentry Watson is going to be level 2 then I say The Stack could be the opener as Nepster said. It would be a good "Wait... what?" moment for beginners (at least it was for me).

[bsmith]

Attached I have a slightly modified version of Five Alive.  All that was done is move one of the steel plates down a few pixels.  This seems to enforce the solution using all the skills available.

The right version is now attached.

[Nepster]

Could you please check your attachment? It seems to be exactly the same level as the original one.