"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[Proxima]

Putting together the feedback from the last two pages:

The "Extra" rank are levels that had less support to begin with than the main levels, so they shouldn't be re-added without strong consensus. Only two Extra levels have had multiple votes in favour: "Worra load of old blocks" and "With a twist of lemming, please". The only level outside the current pack whose reinclusion has been suggested is "The Steel Mines of Kessel".

So, we should consider these three levels plus the main 150 as our pool, and decide on exactly three levels to leave out (which may, of course, include some of the above suggested additions). "Last Lemming to Lemmingcentral" should certainly be dropped, as it's trivialised in NL due to the ability to explode lems in the first five seconds out the hatch (this was simply overlooked earlier). It looks like there's a fairly strong consensus that "Lemmintaschen" is weak and shouldn't make the cut.

For the final level to drop, I certainly don't agree with cutting "Sega Four"; not only is it a good level, but we decided to keep it as a sort of equivalent to a special graphics level so as to keep one in each rank. "It's the price you have to pay" is really the only one that stands out as having several votes against, though another possibility is "All the 6's".

So, having got this far, how do we make the final decision? Should we have a last vote on the borderline levels, or just go with these additions and removals and call it a day?

* * *

I'm strongly opposed to cutting Fun 1-7, because I think it's the perfect way to start a level pack, with simple levels playing with the skills one at a time so the player will definitely get used to all of them. Just look at how many usermade packs start in this fashion, even when the pack as a whole is clearly aimed at players already familiar with the game.

[bsmith]

I am in favor of dropping "Last Lemming to Lemmingcentral" and "Lemmintaschen" to include "Worra load of old blocks" and "With a twist of lemming, please".

There was some support for "The gate trap Lemmings", but not as much as "Worra load of old blocks" and "With a twist of lemming, please".  If we add a third level then I think "The gate trap Lemmings" is the one.

Namida brought up "The Steel Mines of Kessel" for the talisman (90% with 10 builders and 10 bombers) which we can instead apply to its Fun version "You Live and Lem", which is in the pack.

I have a talisman idea for "All the 6's" (100% with 11 builders and 1 of each other skill), so I do not want that level cut.

"It's the price you have to pay" seemed to have gotten mentioned mainly for what is believed to be a major backroute: trapping the lemmings between the posts instead of letting them take a long walk.  A fix was proposed by reducing the number of builders.

[namida]

For the final level to drop, I certainly don't agree with cutting "Sega Four"; not only is it a good level, but we decided to keep it as a sort of equivalent to a special graphics level so as to keep one in each rank.

However, at that point we were contemplating six ranks, weren't we? We have five special graphics levels without including it, unless we plan to drop one of them (or already have; I don't remember off-hand).

[namida]

<Proxima> i tried to persuade namida about having a team leader but no luck

I don't mind taking on this role, especially given that I originally started this project (albeit at the suggestion of others, including you IIRC) and that I want to eventually ship it with NeoLemmix. I just didn't want to be pushy and say "okay, I'm taking this role now and making all the decisions". But if it's preferred that I take it on, I don't mind this - and now is an alright time for this, as aside from updating my own packs as needed for V10.13 when it arrives (which won't be too much work) I'm not working on any packs at the moment - at least until I decide "alright, time to start making Lemmings Plus VI", and I think I want to wait a bit longer for that as I got a bit dry on level ideas towards the end of making LPO2.

[namida]

I have a talisman idea for "All the 6's" (100% with 11 builders and 1 of each other skill), so I do not want that level cut.

How about 100% with only 7 builders and 1 each of the other skills? (Even this is still fairly easy, but I could see it at least being worthy of a bronze talisman.)

EDIT: Found a way with only 6 builders, even - which could (but doesn't really benefit from) even have a time limit of 1:45. As far as I can tell, 5 builders is not possible without allowing losing one lemming, which makes this very trivial, time limit or not.

[bsmith]

New build of the Redux attached.  Changes made from the previous build:
- Lemminatschen and Last Lemming to Lemming Central have been removed and replaced with Worra Load of old Blocks and With a Twist of Lemming Please.
- Across the Gap and Dolly Dimple have been moved up to rank 2.  Turn Around Young Lemmings and Going Their Separate Ways have been moved down to rank 1.
- Removed the Extra rank
- The ZX levels Spot of Bother, Speed Trap, and Hello John Got a New Lemming have been cropped.
- Removed the digger from Let's Go Camping, this removes the most obvious backroute.
- Reduced the number of builders from 3 to 1 in It's the Price you Have to Pay.
- Moved the traps in Let's Go Camping and Compression Method by a few pixels to make the traps visible.
- Repositioned the traps and added a 'window' to see the traps in Worra Lorra of old Blocks.
- Reduced the number of lemmings in With a Twist of Lemming Please to 25 (Talisman idea: solve the level in 2 minutes without adjusting the release rate)

At this point I want to know if the current set of 150 levels in this build will be our final set.  Perhaps it is time for a poll?

[Proxima]

Yes, let's make a final decision on the level list next. There are still a couple of levels on the fringe of inclusion / exclusion, but I'm happy to go along with whatever we decide regarding these.

At the moment, it looks like it's down to "All the 6's" and "It's the price you have to pay" as possible exclusions, "The gate trap Lemmings" and "The Steel Mines of Kessel" as possible inclusions.

Good call on moving "Turn around young lemmings" down, this level becomes much easier in NL with untimed bombers. But perhaps we should also consider cutting it entirely.

I had another look through the Genesis levels to see if any particular favourites had been left out. "Where do you see Lemmings?" and "Let's go to the moon" are good easy levels that haven't been considered yet; I'd like to add these as suggestions for replacing "All the 6's" (particularly "Where do you see Lemmings?", which would be my first choice). "Final impediment" is another one where fixing the backroute might be problematic, and if this can't be done then it should be left out.

Regarding the other changes: I think you should add one builder to "Let's go camping" to compensate for the missing digger (or fix it some other way). The level has become enormously harder now, and since it was already one of the tougher puzzles in the original games, that might not be what we want.

[Ron_Stard]

Regarding the other changes: I think you should add one builder to "Let's go camping" to compensate for the missing digger (or fix it some other way). The level has become enormously harder now, and since it was already one of the tougher puzzles in the original games, that might not be what we want.

On the pre-1.43 NeoLemmix version of "Cheapo Copycat - Other Levels", there was a "Let's Go Camping" fixed scenario, with a slightly different skillset, and a left column: both of those changes prevented obvious backroutes and even make the level challenging and interesting.

EDIT - This was the modified level, and its skillset went this way: 2|1|1|1|7|2|0|1, with a RR of 50 and 4:00 minutes of timing:



The author of this fixed level was Michael S. Repto

[Proxima]

The author of this fixed level was Michael S. Repton

That would be me

I can't remember now why I added the climbers (the only change to the skillset). It doesn't look like that was to prevent backroutes (and I'm not sure how adding skills could ever prevent backroutes). The steel, though, was an obvious and completely unsubtle backroute fix.

I'm not sure I even knew a non-backroute solution at the time; I think I found one for the first time when playing the level in Lix, so that would have been years later.

* * *

Addendum to my previous post: I'm against weighting "this level has a cool talisman" very heavily as a factor when deciding which levels to include. I think we should select on the merits of the level, and then decide on a good set of talismans for the levels we have.

[Proxima]

I just realised: the extra climbers were to allow solutions where one or two lemmings take the long route, the other two or one being allowed to climb over the steel directly to the exit. I didn't, at the time, know of any solution where all three take the long route.

Now that I do know the "all three take the long route" solution, I'd be inclined to treat that as the main solution and enforce it if possible.

[bsmith]

I think All the 6s is worth including if we just reduce the supplies to 6 of each rather than 66, possibly also change the save quantity to 60/66 in keeping with the 6 theme.

I would support cutting Turn Around Young Lemmings to include The Gate Trap Lemmings.  Turn Around feels tutorialish at this point.

Lets Go Camping seems to have several backroutes.  I have found 2 which involve placing a blocker and getting a basher to undermine him, even without the digger.  I have attached a proposed fix to Lets Go Camping.  The empty area between the right of the entrance and the rightmost block is wider.  This eliminates one backroute and gives my scout lemming some extra spacing ahead of the other two.  A steel plate was added to prevent the other backroute, but not jutting out of the terrrain like in the Cheapo version.  A third basher was added to the skillset.

[Proxima]

I think that change improves "All the 6's", but I still prefer including either of the Genesis levels I mentioned. Or both, if we additionally cut "Turn around young lemmings".

What solution to Let's Go Camping are you trying to enforce? I've attached a replay to your latest version that feels like a non-backroute to me (all three go down), but it uses the blocker-release trick you seem to dislike.

[Ron_Stard]

Interesting. Never tried Proxima solution to solve this level. I've always thought the intended solution was this one I've attached.

[bsmith]

The backroutes I am trying to eliminate are ones where a blocker is placed just to the right of the entrance - both of which involve solutions that ignore half of the level.  It is hard to say what is the intended solution but I would say anything making use of the entire level is acceptable.  I have my own solution attached (the last basher is not necessary).

[mobius]

Without the backroute of turning around right at the start; I found "Let's go camping" very difficult. I would say any solution that goes down around (using most of the level) should be acceptable. There are probably lots of variations on this; I remember geoo and ccx (or somebody) have two very different ones years ago.