"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[Minim]

Just so you know (also forgot to mention! ) my blue laptop (where I organised my list of levels from) is now working after 3 weeks of problems. So I can now compare bsmith's list of levels with mine.

So, any suggestions for changes from bsmith's list? (Especially in regards to additions / removals) Or are we probably ready to move onto ordering now?

Well, if we are considering including PSP levels (Which so far 4 people said they want to) then we could consider adding 9 (Pillar talking), 10 (Just 17), 20 (Lemming toast), 24 (With a little help from my Lem), 26 (Back of the net) and 35 (No justice for the hero). These levels were suggested earlier in the thread by Proxima and Nepster.

If namida decides that we should ban PSP levels (Which would bring bsmith's total down to 144) then we could add bsmith's tame level ideas (Tame 4 and 5 have been included already) and Proxima's suggestion of Frost 3. I might consider adding the following levels to bring the total to 150, although these might need more discussion.
* Havoc 3
* Havoc 17
* Mayhem 12

[namida]

Personally, I wasn't in favor of including PSP, NES, etc; but since it seems like enough people are, let's at least consider them.

[bsmith]

namida, can you make a new poll for the thread asking "Should we consider remakes of levels from PSP, NES, etc?"  with 'Yes'/'No'/'Don't Care' as voting options?

[Proxima]

How about first deciding what is or might be included in the "etc" and maybe expanding the options, just in case anyone wants to vote for inclusion of some categories but not others?

Off the top of my head, the contended categories are:

PSP
NES/GameBoy
L2 Classic

...any others?

[namida]

Sega Master System? Although as mentioned earlier, the only levels I can see as potentially being worthwhile are Taxing 21 / Mayhem 18 (of which only one could be included if we prefer avoiding repeats) and Mayhem 17 (which would have to replace Tricky 12 / Mayhem 21 for similar reasons).

[Ron_Stard]

namida, can you make a new poll for the thread asking "Should we consider remakes of levels from PSP, NES, etc?"  with 'Yes'/'No'/'Don't Care' as voting options?

How about first deciding what is or might be included in the "etc" and maybe expanding the options, just in case anyone wants to vote for inclusion of some categories but not others?

Off the top of my head, the contended categories are:

PSP
NES/GameBoy
L2 Classic

...any others?

Personally, I wasn't in favor of including PSP, NES, etc; but since it seems like enough people are, let's at least consider them.

As the user behind the recreation of ZX Spectrum and NES levels, I think I'm an authorized voice to opine on this: there are only 4 levels interesting enough to be considered for this project, between the two ports of the game. They are the following:

-Speed Trap (Mayhem 3 from ZX Spectrum Lemmings)
-A Spot Of Bother (Taxing 6 from NES Lemmings)
-Is That Lemming Licensed? (Mayhem 22 from NES Lemmings)
-Hello John Got A New Lemming (Mayhem 16 from NES Lemmings)

Minim and Flopsy also made versions of these ones. The rest of the levels I've adapted are way too easy, and even too much plain for a novice player. These four levels I've mentioned are intriguing, but compared with others already selected on the .ODS list, they are not a big deal. I think there is no point in creating a poll for these things, unless you want to select at least one significative level from each official port of the game.

[bsmith]

After the recent responses, I don't think we will need a poll after all.

After another look at Proxima's thoughts on what to remove I agree with these: remove Tame 1, 8, 9, 20, Present 4 and Sunsoft 26.  After these removals, add Tame 14.  Then move Flurry 9 "A Block From Home" (already in the list) to be immediately after the three Tame levels (4, 5, 14).

That reduces the list to 141 levels.  From the PSP levels Minim suggested I like 9, 20, 24, and 35.  I also like his suggestions to add Havoc 3 and Mayhem 12.

I do like the four ZX/NES levels Ron has ported and recommended, but I think only one of 'A Spot of Bother' or 'Is That Lemming Licensed' should be added.  Both of 'Speed Trap' and 'Hello John Got a New Lemming' are worthy of including. 

Making all these changes to the list would bring the level count to exactly 150.

[Dullstar]

I haven't finished playing the nxp yet, but here are my thoughts so far:

- Too many tame levels!
- Quote: "That's a Good Level" has an egregiously easy to pull off backroute in NeoLemmix due to the untimed bombers.
- There's no point in including both "Dolly Dimple" and "Dolly Dimple?" since they're almost the same.
- I don't like "Two minutes before midnight" at all. I spent 10 seconds figuring out the solution and 5 minutes trying to position the builders such that the exit wouldn't get blocked off.
- Lemmings in the Attic is very builder heavy. I know there's a repeat level of it later in the original game, but I don't remember off the top of my head if it's any good or not. It might be worth considering over this version, however.
- Worra Load of Old Blocks contains hidden traps, which would need to be made visible.
- While I'm trying not to comment too much on order right now, Plethora of Presents is egregiously difficult for its current position and should be moved to a later rating.

[Proxima]

After the recent responses, I don't think we will need a poll after all.

This is still a team project. Sure, that's one way to reach 150 and it's fairly good, but we still need to make the decisions together. I haven't even had a chance to look at the ZX/NES levels yet. And I've suggested including two of the L2 Classic levels.

@namida: Indeed, on the previous page I suggested we include SMS Mayhem 17 rather than Mayhem 21.

[namida]

Another question - if we do include a version of Sega Four, should it be remade in a normal graphic set (since otherwise it would be the only level in the Sega set)?

[Minim]

I do like the four ZX/NES levels Ron has ported and recommended, but I think only one of 'A Spot of Bother' or 'Is That Lemming Licensed' should be added.  Both of 'Speed Trap' and 'Hello John Got a New Lemming' are worthy of including. 

I also had a go as testing all four of the levels mentioned (and solved them all ). 'A Spot of Bother' is better than 'Is That Lemming Licensed' because you can create nicer solutions with the 8-per skill set, for example clearing the three OWWs. 18 builders in the latter level is highly unusual, considering that I only needed four of them. This isn't helped by the fact the level looks like it needs climbers, so that's my opinion. I also agree that the other two should be included if namida decides to permit ZX/NES levels.

Looking at SEGA Four, it comes down to which challenge we like better: Saving 100% with more skills, or permitting the loss of a few lemmings while reducing the skillset? To be honest, I prefer the latter.

Another question - if we do include a version of Sega Four, should it be remade in a normal graphic set (since otherwise it would be the only level in the Sega set)?

The SEGA graphic set seems to be compatible with DOS, so I don't think it's mandatory to remake it in one of the normal graphic sets. If we decide to keep it however, it might be useful to upload the Redux with it.

[namida]

The SEGA graphic set seems to be compatible with DOS, so I don't think it's mandatory to remake it in one of the normal graphic sets. If we decide to keep it however, it might be useful to upload the Redux with it.

The SEGA set isn't entirely compatible with DOS. There is a DOS version of it, but when played on the actual DOS game, the graphic quality will be reduced because the SEGA set uses more colors than DOS supports at once. (If you use the latest updates I made to (standard) Lemmix, the graphics will display correctly on that.)

It isn't nessecary to include a copy of the SEGA set with Lemmings Redux, because NeoLemmix itself includes a copy.

[namida]

- Lemmings in the Attic is very builder heavy. I know there's a repeat level of it later in the original game, but I don't remember off the top of my head if it's any good or not. It might be worth considering over this version, however.

The repeat relied on bomber timing for difficulty; that aside, it was mostly just a clone of the first version.

[bsmith]

It has been a while since any input has been made, so I figure it is time for an update.

A few levels have been suggested for removal from the list.  The choices that seem to have support are:
- Reducing the number of Tame levels to three: 4, 5, and 14 have been proposed as the three to use.
- Present 4 Lemmings Standing on Earth may have been included in error.
- Sunsoft 26 Just a Minute Part 3 uses a soon to be depreciated mechanic involving miners going against one-way walls.

This short list of removals reduces the list to 141 levels.

Then the following levels have been proposed to be added, with at least one other person in agreement:
- One of ZX Spot of Bother/Is That Lemming Licensed, with preference to Spot of Bother
- ZX Hello John Got a New Lemming
- ZX Speed Trap
- PSP 9 Pillar Talking
- PSP 20 Lemming Toast
- PSP 24 With a Little Help from my Lem
- PSP 35 No Justice for the Hero
- One version of Sega Four
- Havoc 3 It's the price you have to pay
- Mayhem 12 The Far Side

This would bring the total up to 151 levels.

There was discussion as to whether ported levels should be included.  The original list of 146 and these adjustments assume the answer is Yes.  If that answer is No, then 7 of the 10 levels in the addition list would be excluded, along with PSP 14 and PSP 18 already in the original list of 146.  That would then bring the total down to 142.

[namida]

- Mayhem 12 The Far Side

O_O
This one wasn't already on the list?! Now when did I let that happen? :O
To be fair, I would probably have picked up on this while actually putting the pack together, and snuck it back in (nah, kidding, but I would have probably had another go at questioning it once I noticed ). While by today's standards it might not seem so great, I remember thinking this level was incredible when I first played it - and since it's quite possible that new players, or those who haven't played in a long time, may be playing this, levels that create a first impression like that are well worth including I think.

In regards to Just A Minute Part 3 - the option is always there of adapting the level to keep the spirit of the solution while removing the need for that mechanic. Do keep in mind that, if I'm not mistaken, you can still turn a miner around by mining into a one-way-arrow, you just can't start a miner when he's already standing on one. (Do we want to keep it this way? It's still very much possible to start a basher near something that will turn him around, in fact, this is one of the very few cases recently where I've contested one of Nepster's physics decisions and refused to budge, usually I ultimately accept whatever decisions he makes even if they're not my first preference nowdays. However, whatever the outcome is for a miner, we want it to be the same for both steel and wrong one-way arrows - so this decision is basically "apply the existing rule for steel to OWWs too", rather than "apply the existing rule for OWWs to steel too" or "make an entirely new rule".)

In regards to ports - I still don't really know how I feel about it (aside from of course the near-direct ports, like Genesis - I would even say Master System is pushing the limits a bit), but the general preference seems to be towards allowing these. With this in mind, perhaps (if Minim's okay with it) we want to consider the PS3 ports too - although I will put my foot down here and say that none of the levels that use Cloners are eligible, period, as we don't want to be introducing a 9th skill here, no matter what the reason. (I'm not sure if we should perhaps also avoid those that use pickup skills here... but I'll leave that one open for discussion.)