"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[Minim]

Don't know if this is necessary, but maybe we should also introduce a level based on how to clear traps. Fun 21 is not a bad example as it forces the player to go over the trap. Also makes a good introduction to water if the player wants to challenge themselves. Prima Fun 3 is a slightly better example, as while it is a bit lengthy, it does at least force the player to go under the traps. If we put steel under the first trap, then the player will have to clear the traps both ways.

[Proxima]

I agree, there should be an early easy level that shows that triggered traps exist and makes the player bypass one. Fun 21 is a fairly good example -- a little lengthy, but not builder-heavy, and it has the advantage of being an interesting level with lots of possible solutions.

I like Prima Fun 3 much less because it's visually very plain, and the obvious solution is trivial and tedious (it takes a long time compared to the number of skill assignments).

Not sure if there are any other candidates. This is one thing I'll check when I go over the lists in more detail.

[607]

(it takes a long time compared to the number of skill assignments).

But this is NeoLemmix, right? You can always fast-forward.

[Minim]

(it takes a long time compared to the number of skill assignments).

But this is NeoLemmix, right? You can always fast-forward.

Yes, we do know, but fast-forwarding levels isn't the point of the project. It is just to include some of the best puzzles in the set, which includes cutting out the tedious ones, whether it needs fast-forward or not.

I think we're in agreement that Fun 21 should be included in the set. There are actually two ways to clear the trap, build over it, or bunch them all up and release! I also realise there's water that the player may like to cross if they want to.

[Minim]

Since we've been talking about the tediousness of levels for quite some time, I came up with an awesome brainwave. I went through each level to check out the maximum time the player has to waste before assigning an alternate skill to a lemming, or before clearing the path for the others. So let's take Fun 15 for example, which involves bashing and building. I start timing by the moment he's assigned the first basher, and finish when I assign him the builder. I assign him the basher at 7:36 and then the builder at 6:54. He's wasted 42 seconds. Then when he starts building to the exit, the path is cleared at 5:46, meaning that he's taken 68 seconds. I take the higher of the two numbers shown at fill it in the table. I've completed most of the levels the intended way, but I have a few questions to raise on some of the levels that I think I backrouted.

Sunsoft 30 "Fall and no life (Part Two)": I ended up bashing underneath the right-facing OWW at the bottom, saving a builder in the process. I still can't find the intended solution though. Replay attached below.

Present 27 "Try anything once": As mentioned before, I solved it easily by digging the one-way. Steel on top highly recommended.

Present 30 "Final impediment": I want to see this one out of the redux. I never used the platforms below, and was able to solve 100% by just working on the top two. Building to the wall and back takes a whole minute to be exact.

Crazy 19 "Don't Panic" Not a bad level for the second rank (and I don't mind if it stays in the second rank for the Redux if no terrain alterations are made, it's a fairly decent size anyway) but I think the proper route involves going up to the OWW above, and digging down to the exit. That's why there's only one basher and two walls before the exit. The TLE's solution is a backroute as it uses two bombers to break the last wall. I've found out that you can dig and bash the floor. If we wanted to remove the backroutes, this can easily be remedied by taking away the floor in between the two walls.

Sunsoft 19 "Let's go camping." It's a worthy contender for the Redux, no doubt about it, but at the moment all I used was the top platform, freeing the blocker easily with a digger basher.

H94 Hail 04 "Lemmintaschen?" Very nicely designed lantern, but as I mentioned in my old review players can just mine and build under it, removing the challenge altogether. I thought the intended solution was to bash the lantern, including the wall with three candles above. That must be where the 20 builders are coming from.

Sunsoft 20 "Haunted botanical garden" Why a split entrance on the right side? Anyway, I didn't use all the skills, but I expected the lemmings on the left to get hit by the hidden trap after building the gap below. The thing is, they didn't. I wonder if this should be happening on the Genesis version. This post is a similar example that comes to my mind, showing trigger areas for different graphic styles. If so, then I'll need to request a fix to move that trap.

[namida]

There haven't been posts here for a while, but I do remember people saying they wanted time to give further feedback. Are these people still planning on this? (It's alright if you aren't able to do so right away; I just want to see whether I should continue waiting or start moving forward a bit.)

[bsmith]

I just finished what I said I would do earlier - go through all the levels and rate them in difficulty.  There are 480 total levels between all the official packs, many of which I had not played before.  I have attached a spreadsheet with my estimate of difficulty.

In the poll earlier I voted for 5x35.  But after combing through the levels I think it would be better to have 5x30 or even 5x25.  There is a lot of repetition of ideas in the medium difficulty levels that should be pared down for a 'best of lemmings' pack.

[Proxima]

Yes, I'm still going to go through all the levels and give further recommendations for inclusions/exclusions when I have time.

[namida]

No worries.

bsmith: I'll take a look at that tomorrow. Will be useful to have more input for level ordering.

[Nepster]

Thanks for the reminder. I haven't yet looked at Covox and Prima Publ. levels, but here are my opinions, where they differ from namida's list. Some general notes at the beginning:
1) I don't care to have one VGASpec in each rank, which might not even be possible if we go for more than 5 ranks.
2) Whenever one of the more interesting easy levels turned out to have a repeat, I prioritized "interesting game-play" over "no repeat".

Remove these levels

• Fun 22 (Beast of a level): Even if it is a VGASpec, this level is boring to play.
• Tricky 11 (Lemmings in the attic): Builder-heavy and uninteresting.
• Tricky 23 (From The Boundary Line): "Cascade" is superior in every aspect, so this level doesn't give anything new. Note that the easy version Fun 12 is in the list to be added.
• Tricky 28 (Lost something?): Totally uninteresting with no replay-value at all!
• Taxing 3 (Heaven can wait (we hope!!!!)): Builder-heavy. Caging the lemmings without blockers can be learned in other levels as well.
• Taxing 8 (The Art Gallery): Worse than first version of this level, Tricky 5, which I noted to be included instead. Stright-forward solution to an easy level. So if should be a proper easy level with more skills.
• Taxing 16 (Mary Poppins' land): Way too much building. Perhaps replace with H93 Blizzard 1.
• Taxing 21 (Feel the heat!): Does this add anything new? I don't see anything.
• Taxing 27 (Call in the bomb squad): Genesis 17 (which is included as well) has the same idea and is not only constant repetition of "block-bomb-build".
• Taxing 29 (How do I dig up the way?): Does this add anything new? I don't see anything.
• Mayhem 1 (Steel Works): WTF??? Builder-heavy, a non-obvious spatting fall at the beginning and the very real possibility to be one or two builders short at the end.
• Mayhem 9 (Curse of the Pharaohs): There are much better replacements out there, see suggestions for inclusions.
• Mayhem 11 (We all fall down): NeoLemmix has rendered this level totally trivial and uninteresting.
• Mayhem 16 (Just a Minute...): Part 2 suffices. The first level does not add any additional value.
• Mayhem 30 (Rendezvous at the Mountain): Boooring!
• Tame 9-14: All of them totally uninteresting. The remaining two tame levels are more than enough. See my suggestions for other easy levels below.
• Crazy 17 (DIGGING FOR VICTORY): Apart from a terribly tight time limit, this is very straight-forward with obvious placement of skills and not much replay value.
• Wild 3 (Lemming Rhythms): Does this add anything new?
• Wild 5 (Lemming Head): Does this add anything new?
• Wild 7 (You Take the High Road): In principal an acceptable level. However the great amount of scrolling required kills all the fun.
• Wicked 2 (Introducing SUPERLEMMING): As gimmicks get removed, this becomes an extremely boring level.
• Wicked 6 (PoP TiL YoU DrOp!): As one can simply ignore two hatches, this essentially is a repeat of Wild 1. So this adds nothing to the level pack.
• Wicked 18 (LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom): The straight-forward bottom path is just terribly annoying. Either modify the level to remove this path or remove the level altogether.
• Wicked 19 (Up, Down or Round and Round): Pixel-precise placement of builders AND a hidden trap
• Havoc 6 (Now get out of that!): Wicked 5 (Chill out!) is far superior.
• Havoc 11 (Welcome to the party, pal!): Tedious to the extreme!
• Havoc 16 (Scaling the Heights): Not a bad level per se, only very fiddly. There are much better stuff to choose from.
• H94 Hail 1 (Go Thataway!): Crazy 7 is just superior.
• H94 Hail 6 (Surprise Package?): On No, more nuke abuse!
• H94 Hail 12 (Merry Christmaze): Just build at the top... So why have this level? The idea might be nice, but no like this!
• Present 22 (None title): The first version of this level is excellent, but this one? Simply uninteresting compared to that.
• Present 25 (Underground city): Not a really bad level, just a very mediocre level. The first solution that comes to the mind is not really nice and clean.
• Present 29 (Private Rooms Available): Pixel-precise nonsense.
• Present 30 (Final impediment): Does this add anything new?
• Sunsoft 9 (Evacuating a Coal Mine): Does this add anything new?
• Sunsoft 18 (Sunsoft Special): Far uglier than all other VGASpecs and most normal levels as well. Furthermore totally boring and absolutely trivial.
• Sunsoft 27 (Two heads are better): I don't see any value in this level any more, now that we have untimed bomber.

PS: There are several more levels that only barely missed their participation in this list. So if we want to reduce the size of the redux pack, this is absolutely no problem for me .

Add these levels

• Fun 12 (Patience): Easy level, which teaches high RR.
• Fun 21 (You live and Lem): Again an easy level, which is much more interesting than the Tame levels.
• Fun 27 (Let's be careful out there): Same here.
• Tricky 5 (Careless clicking costs lives): Not as good as the previous two, but still superior to the Tames.
• Mayhem 14 (Pea Soup): If we really want to include a builder-heavy level, then include this one. At least it has a funny theme and is not only building like e.g. Steel Works.
• Crazy 13 (It's a trade off): Nice relatively simple idea.
• Wild 2 (Lemming Hotel): Lots of skills and many different easy obstacles. Good level to transition from introduction levels to more advanced stuff.
• Wild 12 (SNOW JOKE): Lots of different easy obstacles again.
• H93 Flurry 11 (At Home in a Cave): If you another candidate to replace the Tame levels with...
• H93 Flurry 12 (Presents of Mind): Another simple level, that is better than the Tames.
• H94 Blizzard 1 (Oogilemming!): Not the best level ever, but certainly better than Taxing 16 (Mary Poppins' land).
• Genesis 23 (No choice but to follow them): Nice level of medium difficulty.
• Genesis 39 (Climb and Fall, Fall and Climb): Good level idea, that doesn't really appear in any other level.
• Present 4 (Lemmings standing on the earth): Lots of skills, not too long and not trivial either.
• Sega 5 (SEGA Five): One of the best levels to replace the tame stuff.
• PSP 14 (Tunnel Vision): Very smart level idea.
• PSP 18 (The run around): The little sister of Lemming Caper.
• PSP 24 (With a little help from my Lem): Another very good level with only two lemmings.
• PSP 26 (Back of the net): Very unique level idea.
• PSP 35 (No justice for the hero): Multiple solutions, none of the straight-forward.

PS: I don't know if we want to include SEGA or PSP levels at all.

For later reference, here two levels, that I think are greatly misplaced:

• Tricky 25 (Cascade): The hardest level in Tricky by far. Certainly not Rank 1, but rather around Rank 3.
• Taxing 10 (Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy): Better in Rank 1.

[Dullstar]

Perhaps a bit late to the discussion, but in regards to ONML and especially Tame:

I honestly don't think it's worth including more than, like, 5 of the Tame levels, and even that, I think, is a bit of a stretch.  They generally require only one or two skills to clear, and it's almost always one of the three terrain remover skills, typically used interchangeably, with the occasional builder thrown in.  Once you understand what all of the skills do (i.e. what the tutorial levels in Fun are designed to do), there is no longer any value in playing the Tame levels, as they generally aren't even usable for self-imposed challenges.

What I feel makes Fun so effective as easy levels is the fact that they DO throw challenges at the player that force the player to figure out how to bypass, but make it so the skillset is not a constraint.  This allows the player to experiment with the skills and learn how they interact with each other before having to actually use the skills to solve puzzles later in the game.

The role of easy levels isn't to be easy; it's to ease the player into the game and to prepare them for the later levels.  The Tame levels are easy, but they definitely don't prepare you for anything other than the levels immediately following the tutorial levels in Fun.

[namida]

That's definitely an interesting point. I would think it's important to, beyond the tutorial levels, have a few extremely simple ones of the Tame variety - no huge dangers, but do require the player to at least think "which skills can I use here". In other words, a small handful of Tame levels between the tutorial levels and any Fun type levels.

[Minim]

Hey, I'm glad that there are some people still interested in this. During the rather inactive period I've already compiled a list of 150 levels that I feel should be included in the redux. Because this list is so long, I've collapsed them into separate lists of different games. I've compared my list to Nepster's suggestions and have bolded the levels that he considered controversial.

Original

Fun 1 "Just Dig!"
Fun 11 "Keep your hair on Mr. Lemming"
Fun 2 "Only Floaters Can Survive This"
Fun 21 "You Live and Lem"
Fun 27 "Let's be careful out there"
Fun 3 "Tailor-Made For Blockers"
Fun 4 "Now use miners and climbers"
Fun 5 "A task for bombers"
Fun 6 "You need bashers this time"
Fun 7 "Builders will help you here"
Mayhem 03 "It's hero time!"
Mayhem 05 "Down, along, up. In that order"
Mayhem 07 "Poles Apart"
Mayhem 08 "Last one out is a rotten egg!"
Mayhem 13 "The Great Lemming Caper"
Mayhem 16 "Just a Minute..."
Mayhem 18 "And then there were four...."
Mayhem 20 "No added colours or Lemmings"
Mayhem 21 "With a twist of lemming please"
Mayhem 22 "A BeastII Of A Level"
Mayhem 27 "Just a Minute... (Part Two)"
Mayhem 28 "Mind the step....."
Mayhem 29 "Save Me"
Taxing 02 "Watch out, there's traps about"
Taxing 06 "Compression Method 1"
Taxing 08 "The Art Gallery"
Taxing 09 "Perserverance"
Taxing 10 "Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy"
Taxing 13 "Upsidedown World"
Taxing 21 "Feel the heat!"
Taxing 22 "Come on over to my place"
Taxing 26 "Triple Trouble"
Taxing 27 "Call in the bomb squad"
Taxing 28 "POOR WEE CREATURES!"
Tricky 11 "Lemmings in the attic"
Tricky 18 "It's Lemmingentry Watson"
Tricky 19 "Postcard from Lemmingland"
Tricky 21 "All the 6's..."
Tricky 22 "Turn around young lemmings!"
Tricky 23 "From The Boundary Line"
Tricky 25 "Cascade"
Tricky 26 "I have a cunning plan"
Tricky 29 "Rainbow Island"
Tricky 30 "The Crankshaft"

ONML

Crazy 01 "Quote That's A Good Level"
Crazy 06 "The Stack"
Crazy 07 "And Now the end is near"
Crazy 08 "KEEP ON TRUCKING"
Crazy 10 "ROCKY VI"
Crazy 14 "Time Waits for No Lemming"
Crazy 15 "Worra Load Of Old Blocks"
Crazy 16 "Across The Gap"
Crazy 19 "Don't Panic"
Havoc 04 "The Race Against Cliches"
Havoc 05 "There's Madness in the Method"
Havoc 06 "Now Get Out Of That!"
Havoc 07 "Creature Discomforts"
Havoc 08 "Lemming About Town"
Havoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!"
Havoc 10 "Flow Control"
Havoc 12 "It's All A Matter Of Timing"
Havoc 14 "Synchronised Lemming"
Havoc 16 "Scaling the Heights"
Havoc 18 "Lemmings in a Situation"
Havoc 19 "Looks A Bit Nippy Out There"
Tame 01 "Down and Out Lemmings"
Tame 04 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings"
Tame 08 "Dangerzone"
Tame 09 "And Now This..."
Tame 10 "New Lemmings On The Block"
Tame 11 "With Compliments"
Tame 12 "Citizen Lemming"
Tame 14 "Get A Little Extra Help"
Tame 20 "Custom Built For Lemmings"
Wicked 01 "LeMing ToMato KetchUp fAcility"
Wicked 03 "This Corrosion"
Wicked 05 "Chill Out!"
Wicked 06 "PoP TIL YoU DrOp"
Wicked 07 "Last Lemming to Lemming Central"
Wicked 08 "A Towering Problem"
Wicked 11 "ROCKY ROAD"
Wicked 16 "Five Alive"
Wicked 17 "Down The Tube"
Wicked 18 "Lots More Where They Came From"
Wicked 19 "Up, Down or Round And Round"
Wicked 20 "The Lemming Funhouse"
Wild 01 "Pop Yor Top"
Wild 04 "Meeting Adjourned"
Wild 06 "Just A Quicky"
Wild 07 "You Take The High Road"
Wild 08 "It's A Tight Fit"
Wild 10 "Higgledy Piggledy"
Wild 11 "Mutiny on the Bounty"
Wild 13 "Onward and Upward"
Wild 15 "The Silence of the Lemmings"
Wild 20 "Got Anything... Lemmingy?"

Genesis

Genesis 04 "Catch more floaters."
Genesis 17 "Don't leave any Lemmings"
Genesis 21 "The bridge is breaking down."
Genesis 24 "Jump down!"
Genesis 30 "Fall and no life."
Genesis 33 "Watch your fingertip!"
Genesis 35 "Let's get together."
Genesis 36 "Over the wall"
Genesis 37 "Twins"
Genesis 46 "No hurry, Relax."
Genesis 47 "Lemmings' Ark"
H93 Flurry 8 "Vacation in Gemland"
Present 05 "Darkness of the royal family"
Present 06 "No time for a detour"
Present 15 "Evil whisper"
Present 17 "Electric circuit"
Present 19 "Acrophobia"
Present 22 "None title"
Present 24 "Everyone's a hard nut."
Present 26 "Pitfall"
Present 28 "Which one are you trying to get?"
Present 29 "Private room available"
Sunsoft 03 "Anxiety"
Sunsoft 09 "Evacuating a coal mine"
Sunsoft 12 "Water processing plant"
Sunsoft 13 "Doomsday"
Sunsoft 18 "Sunsoft Special"
Sunsoft 22 "Watch right or left (Part two)"
Sunsoft 23 "Move on in two separate groups."
Sunsoft 24 "Out, away from the tune"
Sunsoft 26 "Just a minute (Part Three)"
Sunsoft 27 "Two heads are better..."
Sunsoft 28 "The gate trap Lemmings."
Sunsoft 29 "I am A.T."
Sunsoft 30 "Fall and no life (Part Two)"

Holiday

H93 Blitz 15 "The Needs of the Many..."
H93 Flurry 09 "A Block from Home"
H93 Flurry 16 "The Long Way Around"
H94 Frost 09 "Quest for Kieran"
H94 Frost 10 "Four Play"
H94 Frost 13 "2 Minutes before midnight"
H94 Frost 15 "Plethora of Presents"
H94 Hail 01 "Go Thataway!"
H94 Hail 06 "Surprise Package?"
H94 Hail 10 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground"
H94 Hail 11 "Emmings! (No L)"
H94 Hail 15 "Steel Block Party"

Other levels

Tricky 14 (Budget Amiga) "Lemming Lament"
Tricky 21 (Mac) "Going Their Separate Ways"
Covox Mayhem 02 "JackLemmings"
Prima Mayhem 1 "Dolly Dimple?"
Prima Mayhem 3 "Old MacDonald Had a Farm..."
Prima Taxing 3 "Oh No! Squish."
X92 4 "The North Poles"

BTW whether we should include it or not "Don't leave any Lemmings" is supposed to be a right-entrance level despite the right-left layout. It makes more sense to bomb the right side of the starting platform to give the lemmings a safer drop.

[Proxima]

I'll go over a few things quickly -- this isn't my full review, which I'll still do as soon as I have time.

Tame levels

I think we should include Tame 1, 4, 5 and no others, for the reason namida stated two posts up. These are actually much better suited to the role of "first non-tutorial levels" than the original Fun 8, 9, 10 -- 8 and 9 are as trivial as the least interesting Tames, and 10 is bad because the most obvious solution for beginners is to make everyone float, which is boring.

Why these three in particular? 1 is an excellent first level. 4 adds some interest with having to bring the lemmings down without splatting. 5 introduces steel.

As I mentioned previously, I also like the idea of using Tame 11 and 8 as replacement tutorial levels to cut down on the number of repeats, but if you don't want to do this, their 20-of-all versions don't bring anything new -- both are just "bash twice" like Tame 2.

Feedback on Nepster's lists

Repeats: Strongly agree with including Fun 12 and not Tricky 23. Fun 12 is a good easy level and teaches coping with RR 99.
Strongly agree with including Fun 21 and Fun 27, even though we will probably use their repeats as well. 21 is a good level and might end up being the first level that introduces triggered traps. 27 is really good because it has lots of possible solutions, and and interesting challenge for a talisman.
Agree with including Tricky 5 and not Taxing 8.

Removals: For now, I don't agree with removing levels just because they "don't bring anything new", if they are fun to play, which is of course subjective. Most on Nepster's list I would rather keep if possible, but we should see what the numbers look like after removing any levels we do agree on.
Agree on removing Taxing 29, which is not interesting. This is another where we could re-include its easy version to fill out the easy set, depending on numbers.
Agree on not including any WAFD.
Agree on removing Crazy 17, Wicked 18 and 19, Havoc 6 and 11, Hail 1 and 12, Present 22 and 25, Sunsoft 27. I don't really want to give reasons for every level at the moment, so I'll just say that I agree with Nepster's reasons.

Strong disagreement on Sunsoft 9, which is a really good puzzle that stumped me for a long time. I'd also like to keep Present 30, but only if we can de-backroute it.

Additions: Disagree with Pea Soup, which is tedious and virtually the same as Stepping Stones.
Disagree with Crazy 13, which has a ton of unintended solutions.
I think we should include a selection of the PSP levels, and I think this will help with filling out the easy set, so we shouldn't include more Holiday levels just because they are easy.
Disagree with Blizzard 1, which is long and tedious. True that Mary Poppins' Land is mostly building, but it's also shorter.
Disagree with Present 4, which has too many hidden traps. Present 3 or 5 would be a better additional easy level.

[Proxima]

Also, I note that a couple on Nepster's "remove" list were originally not included, and prematurely re-included because just one person had suggested doing so. For now, we should still regard the list on Page 3 of this topic as the main list, and keep track of how many people are for or against each removal from or addition to that list.