"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[607]

Currently, the votes are split 50-50 between keeping We All Fall Down or removing it...
Anyway, I like how this project is shaping up so far!

[RubiX]

I always had some anger regarding we all fall down towards DMA for doing this to the game.

Taking away the placeholders of what could have been more original maps just to replace it with cheap filler levels 4 times was very wrong.   This is why I strongly would rather not even have to look at it.   On the upside, only having it a maximum of 1 time isnt going to hurt.

With the multiple other maps that were used just twice in lemmings I feel only slightly the same way, however the maps were much more enjoyable remakes than:  we all fall asleep

[namida]

There were a few levels in Lemmings that I have not seen since first playing through the game, it seems that they got removed from later versions of the original lemmings for some reason?  Cant remember all the names, except one of them which was in TRICKY [Lemming Lament] which I thought was a good map back then.   Anyone know of these levels I talk of, and can they be found and possibly added to the pack here?

These levels are potential candidates. The draft list has 3 of othe 4 unique-to-that-version levels on it.

[RubiX]

Thx Namida

[ccexplore]

Taking away the placeholders of what could have been more original maps just to replace it with cheap filler levels 4 times was very wrong.

I think they were going for some sort of running gag by repeating it that many times.  I just don't think it was all that funny by the 4th time though.   I also suspect they just felt they couldn't afford to spend additional time on more original levels not knowing how much of a hit the game would become (and a game that's effectively almost a new genre at the time), hence the high number of repeats overall.

=================

Anyway, WAFD ain't exactly award-winning, so I don't think I'll miss it if it's excluded completely, but at the same time I don't think I'd mind too much if it was included somewhere just once without repeats.  Even unique levels from other ports can sometimes be pretty lame as well (eg. the "solvable by doing absolutely nothing" Apple Computer special graphics level).

[namida]

Okay so, the winning option currently is "Don't include it at all". However, the total votes for any version (regardless of which one) outnumber it. Between the votes that are for including some version, Fun and Mayhem are tied for the most.

So I'm going to put up another poll between these two versions; and keep in mind that it's one of the levels we should look at quite closely in regards to possible removals. Apologies to the people who already voted one of those two options.

[mobius]

There were a few levels in Lemmings that I have not seen since first playing through the game, it seems that they got removed from later versions of the original lemmings for some reason?  Cant remember all the names, except one of them which was in TRICKY [Lemming Lament] which I thought was a good map back then.   Anyone know of these levels I talk of, and can they be found and possibly added to the pack here?

I've only heard of this recently and I've never seen that level. Why were these levels removed? Was this explained somewhere?

[namida]

There were a few levels in Lemmings that I have not seen since first playing through the game, it seems that they got removed from later versions of the original lemmings for some reason?  Cant remember all the names, except one of them which was in TRICKY [Lemming Lament] which I thought was a good map back then.   Anyone know of these levels I talk of, and can they be found and possibly added to the pack here?

I've only heard of this recently and I've never seen that level. Why were these levels removed? Was this explained somewhere?

They weren't removed as such. Rather, there was a "Budget Amiga" version of the game designed to fit on a single disk, or something like that; this didn't leave enough space for the special graphics levels, so those were removed, and these other levels were added in their place.

Some other versions that lack special graphics levels (eg. Master System) also include these levels, although at least in the case of Master System the difficulty of them was dumbed down a bit (although Lemming Lament, or "Menace" as it's called in that version, still remains the hardest level in Tricky).

[namida]

Looking through the suggestions so far, here's what seem to be the suggestions for additions / removals - please let me know if I've missed any!:

-= Additions =-
Crazy 15
Crazy 16 - suggested by multiple people
Crazy 17
Crazy 19 - suggested by multiple people
Wild 1
Wild 4
Wild 8
Wild 13
Wild 20 - suggested by multiple people
Wicked 18
Havoc 6
Havoc 7
Havoc 11
Havoc 15 - suggested by multiple people

-= Removals =-
Havoc 3
X92 3 - suggested by multiple people
H93 Flurry 5
H93 Flurry 12
H93 Blitz 4
H93 Blitz 8 - suggested by multiple people
H93 Blitz 13 - suggested by multiple people
H93 Blitz 15 - disagreed by another person
H94 Frost 4
H94 Frost 13
H94 Hail 5
H94 Hail 12 - suggested by multiple people
H94 Hail 13
H94 Hail 14 - suggested by multiple people
H94 Hail 16



Of the removal suggestions, I strongly disagree on H94 Frost 13 "2 minutes before midnight" (it has the added difficulty of that the splatform must be built without blocking access to the exit; sure, it's not a very hard level, but it isn't worthless), and somewhat disagree on H94 Hail 12 "Merry Christmaze" (it's an interesting concept somewhat, and a fairly easy level which is something we're somewhat lacking in at this point) and Blitz 15 (for much the same reasons as Minim).

[Minim]

Looks like we have a consensus. The Mayhem version would be used! I'm glad I voted for that one as IMO this one is more interesting than the Fun version because it adds a few elements in terms of difficulty.

So, I've lost track on how many levels we've got at the moment. Are we still on 205?

[namida]

Seems indeed like the Mayhem version is preferred.

Are there any further agreements / objections / additions to the above addition/removal lists? If not, I'll update the level listing taking these changes into account (for now, I probably won't take off / add ones that were controversial; obviously we'll have to look at them at some point).

[Proxima]

Yes, I'm still going to go through the other level sets as I did for Holiday, and suggest removals. I will also disagree with some of the suggested additions 

Havoc 3 is mislabelled; it's a suggested removal (by me), not an addition.

[namida]

Fixed that in the above list.

Regarding Havoc 3 though, I think it's quite clear what the intent here was - how to enforce it may be a bit harder. Are there any other levels on the list that use this trick? If not, I think that it may be worth at least keeping it on the list for now; when we decide on more levels to cull later once we have a set target (particularly if we can't fix it), we could remove it.

[Minim]

I played Havoc 3 and discovered something. I think in the DOS version a basher is sometimes able to stroke past two walls if you bash in the right place. The NeoLemmix Mechanics cuts that glitch out. Anyway, I discovered three methods.

First (and that I think is the intended solution, saving a climber and a floater AFAIK) is to bash the three pipes, and let one lemming turn back to do the hard work while the other lemmings explore the landscape. The big bubble wall must be mined, but let the worker lemming climb a bit to gain a bit of height before doing so. He can therefore build once the breakthrough is made so that he can mine the wall he just climbed. As you need 100% IMO holding the others back like this is a unique method, and uses the full landscape fantastically well. I see that trick is repeated into Havoc 13 on the TLE (Not sure if we're keeping this or not). I think that's a backroute, as the intended solution is to build over the big rocky wall, mining near the end of it, before bashing the next.

Another method on Havoc 3 that TLE discovered was to force your way into the terrain pit, building into it, possibly keeping a few lemmings at bay with climbers, but bashing one the stair is made and enough height is gained. Trapping lemmings like that is also quite a unique concept.

The third is to just mine and build the last pipe with the second lemming, and bash the bubble wall with the first like most players would. I think that's unintentional, as it abuses the terrain of the starting platform, but we can't really do anything about that for now.

So, given the unique trapping method in what I think is the intended solution, I say we should keep this level.

[Flopsy]

That Havoc 3 basher glitch occurs in the Windows 95 and PS1 version of Lemmings aswell.

It bashes through sometimes 2 vertical pipes depending on the basher placement, giving you a spare basher to solve the rest of the level.

I was never a fan of this level personally, the only good thing about it is it's a Bubble graphic set which is the most underused ONML graphic set. But again we're not considering graphic sets anyway, it's just one of my favourite graphic sets.