"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[namida]

The cause of this, at least in DOS L1, is that a basher will never stop simply as a result of no terrain in front of him on an even-numbered stroke (he can still stop on an even stroke due to having nothing to stand on, or hitting steel / a wrong one way). This is no longer true in NeoLemmix; however it very well may still be possible to bash through two in one basher if very well placed (I haven't tested to find out for sure) because, even though the lemming can stop on an even-numbered stroke, the terrain check covers a larger distance from the lemming.

It'd sound like a fix to this level would need to somehow involve preventing building over the poles. Come to think of it, the level can be solved without builders (apart from one to cross the gap near the start), right? If so, then the fix at least to that backroute would be simple - reduce the number of builders to 1.

[namida]

Here's a new list, taking into account those addition / removal suggestions. I've also made sure no rank has more than 40 levels; however, since we have 196 total candidates at the moment, this does mean one rank has less than 40 levels (just happens to be the 4th rank, mostly just as a result of the order I did things in when moving levels to avoid excess).

So, the next thing to decide I guess is our target. 5 ranks does work pretty well, especially with only having 5 really suitable special graphics levels available, so I would prefer to stick with this. This gives us three options that retain a fairly nice number of levels per rank - 200 levels (5 x 40), 175 levels (5 x 35), or 150 levels (5 x 30). I've put a poll up as to which one should we go for.

Also, chances are this list is far from optimal in regards to the division of levels into ranks, so feel free to suggest alterations. Do however note that currently, I haven't considered the order within a rank - the ordering in the attached file is just based on their original positions in the source games.

[Flopsy]

Well one thing I've noticed already is "Wild 13 Onward and Upwards" is both in Rank 3 and Rank 5 so it appears on the list twice (I feel that level is better in Rank 5 with the 3:00 time limit intact otherwise it is a Rank 3 with an increased or no time limit)

Spoiler

Wild 4 Meeting Adjourned I feel is too hard to be a Rank 2 (100% and hard to contain lemmings), can easily swap with Higgledy Piggledy in Rank 3 (lax save requirement, simpler solution).
Wicked 18 Lots More Where They Came From would be better in Rank 4, swap with Crazy 2 Dolly Dimple and bring that to Rank 3.
Havoc 9 ARGH! could easily move down to Rank 4, I found this to be easy for a Havoc level.
Taxing 6 Compression Method 1 should move up from Rank 2, that level was a brick wall for me back in the early days for me!
Taxing 26 Triple Trouble - How is this even a Rank 2? Rank 4 easily I'd say.
Crazy 17 - Digging for Victory - Again like Onwards or Upwards, it needs to move up from Rank 2 if the 3:00 time limit remains otherwise it can stay in Rank 2.
Havoc 7 - Creature Discomforts - This level is very hard for a Rank 2 level and would be better off in Rank 4 or even Rank 5!
Havoc 6 - Now Get Out of That, this level could possibly move down to Rank 3 from Rank 4.
Taxing 18 - Tribute to MC Escher - Possible move from Rank 2 to Rank 3, not an easy one to work out and too close to Fun 11 which is it's repeat.
Taxing 21 - Feel The Heat - This level I feel is also a little too hard for a Rank 2.
Hail 10 - Lemmy in the Cold Cold Ground - Also feel this level is too hard for a Rank 2, this one is possibly the hardest Holiday Lemmings level in my opinion. Definitely should be up in Rank 4 with Emmings! (No L)
MENACING and AWESOME should be swapped I feel, Don't feel like MENACING is harder than AWESOME.

This is only my opinion though and can only really comment on Original, Holiday and OHNO.
Nonetheless, well done namida for sorting them into more equal numbered ranks

EDIT: Spoiler tagged my suggestions for rank movement since it seems we're not quite ready for that stage yet.

[Minim]

Looking at the poll, I see more users are choosing to hit 200 rather than be a "deletionist" and subtract some levels to reach 175, the one I voted for. That's OK, because I have a couple more Genesis Levels that I'd want to see in the redux:

Genesis 43: "A group of entrances" This level has the rare double OWW, not seen in any of the Amiga Lemmings Levels.
Present 18: "King of Lemmings". Despite being only a builders & bashers level, the layout of this level makes the solution very interesting. The worker and the group need to go through different paths.
Present 19: "Acrophobia". It's challenging trapping the lemmings without having to hit the traps above. One slight drawback however is that bombing the stairway leading up to the trap takes perfect pixel precision.
Present 23: "Precarious oasis" Nice puzzle. 'nuff said.
Sunsoft 5: "Watch your step" Takes a fair bit of skill trying to bash at the correct height, but unlike Crazy 7, you don't need to save 100%, and you also don't have to climb a huge wall before doing so.
Sunsoft 21: "Be sure to be a builder" Another one of those unusual "One-way blocking the exit" levels. However, ignore this level if all the lemmings happen to go over it.

Another surprise addition I'm thinking of is Genesis 14: "Go out for a walk?" I don't remember seeing climbing bombers for walkers to ascend to higher ground anywhere else in Lemmings. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.

[Proxima]

Why the hurry? I said I was going to disagree with some of the suggestions as well as making others. And that will drastically affect what the list looks like, which will affect decisions about the number. Do I not have a voice in this any more?

* * *

Strong agreement re Acrophobia. That one probably lost in the vote-offs due to the direct drop backroute, but in NeoLemmix the de-backrouting work is already done for us.

[IchoTolot]

I am still for keeping it a MAX 30 levels per rank. Do not overload them too much. If you go 150+ do more ranks with fewer levels instead of the 30+ ranks.

[bsmith]

I agree with IchoTolot.  IIRC, 30 is the largest rank size in the official sets and that gets long on harder difficulties.

My preferred ranking options would be 180=6x30 or 175=7x25 - I voted for 5x35 only because that is the closest to these numbers.  It should not be too hard to cull 16 levels out of the tentative list we have now to meet 6x30.

If we want to keep the list of 196 as is then 7x28 is an option. As long as there are no objections to the current list I would be happy with this division.

[IchoTolot]

from IRC:

<IchoTolot>I just wanted to stop the 30+ level per rank thing before it gets too clumsy. With the current implementation it is hard to go through 30+ level batches.  That why a rank-levels-list at the side of the screen will be nessesary
<Proxima>We need to slow down and finish looking at the list of levels first before deciding anything about ranks. That should have been obvious.
.....
<IchoTolot>Proxima is 100% right

[Nepster]

I agree with Proxima and IchoTolot: First we have to decide on the levels we think deserve to be included in the level pack. After that we can worry about distributing them into ranks.

And we really should slow down with deciding on which levels to include. The levels were made over 20 years ago, so there is absolutely no time pressure to get the pack together!
We even had a vote on the WAFDs already, while it was absolutely impossible to guess the avarage quality of the other levels. Can anyone tell me, how I can make an educated vote, if I'm not able to compare the WAFDs to the other levels in the pack?

Furthermore I am not convinced that voting on a question is a sensible thing to do, when there was no discussion on the problem before. Sure, I can give arguments while the voting is still ongoing, but people will not be able to change their votes when getting convinced by arguments that another option would be better. So a poll is useful (and only useful) once everyone presented their arguments and had their say.
Moreover during the discussion it might turn up that the best solution is something noone had considered previously and so would have been missed as an option in the poll.

Finally you have to give us more time. How I would vote in the current poll depends very much on the number of levels I feel deserve to be included. However finding this number requires lots of research efforts that I have to do myself. Having lots of other stuff to do, I will certainly not be able to do this within the next three days. Do you really prefer votes reflecting peoples' gut feelings or do you want votes that were given proper thoughts on the matter at hand?

PS: And I still wonder why the vote counts are kept secret while being logged in, but can be viewed after logging out. That doesn't make any sense at all.

[Minim]

BTW I discovered that one entry in the downloadable spreadsheet has been mentioned twice. "Creature Discomforts". So that means we're down to 195 levels.

We even had a vote on the WAFDs already, while it was absolutely impossible to guess the avarage quality of the other levels. Can anyone tell me, how I can make an educated vote, if I'm not able to compare the WAFDs to the other levels in the pack?

I'm just wondering in a similar sort of fashion with a similar type of question, why there are still half of the Tame levels left? If we compare those with the tutorial levels and Fun 11 then these ones are just pointless to include.

[namida]

Well one thing I've noticed already is "Wild 13 Onward and Upwards" is both in Rank 3 and Rank 5 so it appears on the list twice (I feel that level is better in Rank 5 with the 3:00 time limit intact otherwise it is a Rank 3 with an increased or no time limit)

BTW I discovered that one entry in the downloadable spreadsheet has been mentioned twice. "Creature Discomforts". So that means we're down to 195 levels.

Damnit. I thought I caught all cases of those. >_>

Why the hurry? I said I was going to disagree with some of the suggestions as well as making others. And that will drastically affect what the list looks like, which will affect decisions about the number. Do I not have a voice in this any more?

Of course you do. I'm not looking at this of a matter of "gather levels once, sort it once, bam, product finished", but rather an ongoing matter of the two. The reason being that, while obviously we need an initial list before we can sort anything at all, having a sorted list of some kind would be beneficial to see if we're lacking anywhere. We can probably see quite easily if we're lacking in really-easy or really-hard levels, but what if the weak spot is somewhere near the middle? Having a rough list also allows us to more comfortably pick a target - we may not have our final list, but we're close enough to it to start giving that consideration.

<IchoTolot>I just wanted to stop the 30+ level per rank thing before it gets too clumsy. With the current implementation it is hard to go through 30+ level batches.  That why a rank-levels-list at the side of the screen will be nessesary

And such a thing is planned for NeoLemmix in the future. Probably the not-too-distant future.

PS: And I still wonder why the vote counts are kept secret while being logged in, but can be viewed after logging out. That doesn't make any sense at all.

It should be possible to view them, without voting, even when logged in. I'll pop onto the test account and check.
EDIT: Confirmed, I can view the results when logged in on the test account. Just click the "View Results" button underneath the poll.

I'm just wondering in a similar sort of fashion with a similar type of question, why there are still half of the Tame levels left? If we compare those with the tutorial levels and Fun 11 then these ones are just pointless to include.

Because we're quite lacking in easy levels otherwise. Even with the current list, there are some levels that don't fit too well into a first rank; but they're there because they're the easiest of the levels that would fit well into a second rank. A 30 or 35 levels per rank structure may help remedy this.

If we want to keep the list of 196 as is then 7x28 is an option. As long as there are no objections to the current list I would be happy with this division.

The list is nowhere near finalized.

If you go 150+ do more ranks with fewer levels instead of the 30+ ranks.

Hm, we would have to include the other special graphics levels (Covox and Prima's ones) if we wanted to keep a once per rank thing for them going here. In fact, most of them only got in at all (at least initially; perhaps they would've been specifically mentioned later) on the "let's have one of them per rank" ticket.

[namida]

Re-posting of the list again, with those duplicates removed.

I'll stress once again - just because it's more neatly divided up, does not mean this is final in ANY way - it is not final in terms of included levels, it is not final in terms of how the levels will be divided up, or anything else! All input is still welcome! I will probably post updated lists often, and draw attention to things that we probably need to start thinking about; it doesn't mean older subjects are now decided. It means (especially the former) I don't want to fall too far behind on the suggestions, and end up forgetting about some of them altogether.

[Flopsy]

Just wanted to make a post to compile what I said in IRC among some other things.

I went on suggesting rank changes for levels in my previous post (in the  spoiler tag) because I'm very laid back and I was just following the flow of the topic at the time. I also neglected the fact that others like Proxima and IchoTolot had additional input about what levels should be included.

I never really thought about the fact that 40 levels per rank would be a bit on the high side. I did vote for 200 (5 x 40) in the poll but I'm having second thoughts on my vote after seeing the points which others have made.
I feel it should be no more than 30 levels per rank which means we would most likely be having 6 ranks if we're going to keep around the 180 mark. However it means we're going to have to shed about 15 more levels from the current list, and that is if we're not adding anymore levels otherwise we'd need to lose more. I also feel there should not be more than 6 ranks if we need more than 5 ranks.

Also, the way polls are done. I can see why they are done that way, it's to gauge an opinion on a matter without leading the topic on to talking about the matter specifically. I think it would be better to instead of using polls to decide certain scenarios. We should instead just talk about the matter in the topic as well as having the poll existing that way there is more discussion generated on the matter and we can explain why we voted the way we did. It also gives people who are unsure a chance to see what others have said even if the poll results are hidden to them.

There is no rush to get things done anyway, I agree that this project should not be rushed and it needs careful consideration on what levels should be included.

That's about all I can think of that needs to be said at the moment

[namida]

The main reason behind the polls is that there are often people who do have an opinion on the subject, but for whatever reason don't wish to make a post about it - perhaps they don't want to say "Do this, it's just what I feel would be best and can't explain why"; perhaps they'd rather give their opinion anonymously; and so on.  As always when I make polls regarding projects, the answer isn't nessecerially binding anyway - if further discussion gives a good reason to change from the winning option, it can be repolled, or even just changed without a second vote. Using the We All Fall Down example - perhaps when we decide to reduce the level count to a lower amount (if we do), We All Fall Down may end up being one of the culled levels anyway.

Since people have indicated they'd like more time to make suggestions for additions / removals, perhaps in the meantime we should start on some backroute fixes for levels we can be fairly certain will get in (eg: due to being widely liked, and scoring very high in the level voteoffs). We'll avoid doing those for levels that are far more borderline, until we're closer to a finalized list.

One level we can perhaps start with - this scored 3rd place in the voteoffs, so I think we can be fairly sure it's getting in - is Mayhem 13. I've attached a replay of what I believe is probably the intended solution. If we agree to go for this one, the changes I would propose are removing the blockers (as most backroutes rely on them, I believe) and perhaps reducing the release rate to 1 to reduce the difficulty of execution (although it's also possible to simply use some of the spare destructive skills to delay the lemming). A few variants on this solution would still remain possible, but the key idea of the lemmings taking two different paths would remain.

[Minim]

I think the intention with Mayhem 13 is to try not to make both lemmings get across the first gap together, otherwise this level would be backrouted. Your plan of decreasing the release rate might seem like a good idea, but if you just slow down the other lemming with diggers and bashers he might still be able to get across that gap along with the builder. Maybe that's why the developers actually increased the rate (50 compared to Fun 26's 30) just because this might happen.

Your solution is a not a bad one, but there is at least one interesting but valid alternative. The TLE solution uses a blocker to hold the other lemming back while the first does his job. It only takes one route but it also uses quite a fair bit of landscape and most importantly, the two lemmings aren't on the middle platform so quickly. So in that regard, I suggest keeping the blockers for this level.

At the moment I'm going through every level on the list here. My intention wasn't really to go backroute searching, but I'm glad you mentioned it though, because I discovered a major backroute on Present 27 "Try anything once" under PC mechanics. Basically, it involves digging the one way wall to free the others, thus cancelling out the top and outside area of the level. (I'm not sure if this works on the Genesis version, I might ask someone about that) If we're allowed to fix them, this level can easily be remedied however by adding steel on top of the first one-way wall.  Here is what I think is the intended solution.