"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[bsmith]

Your bomber removal list is very similar to mine.  I am satisfied with most of the changes you implemented.  I would also remove the bomber from There's Madness in the Method.  I have a no-floater solution for The Needs of the Many that uses extra bombers and lemmings, so I do not want to see that level changed.

Since you mentioned The Great Lemming Caper, I have multiple distinct solutions for that level and two of them use a blocker.

[namida]

Proxima: I'm gonna agree with a generalisation of bsmith's point; we shouldn't remove surplus lemmings just because "there aren't enough permanent skills for them, and permanents are needed to complete the level". The only exception I might agree on is in the case of a splat start where a splatform is impossible to make at all (not just "impossible to make and still pass the level"), and I don't know of any levels off the top of my head that fit this criteria - in fact even then, one could argue that changing which lemmings get floaters could be perceived to be part of a solution - we even do have a level that would (ignoring the alternate solution for obvious reasons) fit this description, "Cascade".

That aside, your list seems good to me.

[Proxima]

I'd love to see this alternate solution to "The Needs of the Many". I had another look, and although you can break the initial fall with a bomber, you still have only 11 climbers and no other way to get the lemmings up.

[namida]

He said no floaters (not no climbers), and nothing about saving the extra lemmings, just about using them. On the unmodified version of the level, under NeoLemmix, this is not only possible, but fairly easy. Still could be considered talisman worthy, though.

Spoiler

Use two bombers to make the fall at the start survivable. Send a climber up, bomb. Build up to the top, as usual. Bash through the snowman. Use the last two bombers to get through the wall near the exit. You'll save exactly the requirement - I could even have believed this might have been an intended alternate solution, if it weren't for the fact that it's impossible under DOS Lemmings.

[Proxima]

If that's what bsmith meant, I don't see why it's an argument for keeping the old lemming count. You use and lose the three climber-bombers and save the other eight climbers; the remaining lemmings contribute nothing and have to be left behind.

Also, isn't the intended solution exactly the same, except you float down rather than bomb down? Hardly "talisman worthy" for such a small change.

[Nepster]

Perhaps a more convincing argument is the solution to "The Needs of the Many" that uses just 8 climbers? This solution became impossible with the change to only 11 lemmings.

[Proxima]

Sure, in that case we should put it back. Your replay isn't working for me (the first bomber goes off too high and the rest splat), but of course I believe you if you say this solution exists. I wasn't trying to be obstructive, just wanted to hash this out so we could make the best decision for the pack.

[Nepster]

Sorry, I used an old version and it seems there has been a very slight change to the level. Here a replay, that (hopefully ) works with Lemmings_Redux_0.2.1.
One should note however, that there is a much simpler solution along the same lines that works even with 11 lemmings. The attached replay is therefore only interesting for talisman purposes or min-required-skill-challenges.

[namida]

Okay, my thoughts on level ordering, and possibly some other random comments:

(Gentle 8-10) Snuggle Up To A Lemming presents the fewest hazards, and should come first. Get A Little Extra Help also presents very few hazards, but more importantly, it feels more different from the other two than they do from each other, so it makes sense to seperate them with it. While there's no denying Downwardly Mobile Lemming is still pretty low on hazards, there are a few more, and they're not quite as easy to avoid - yes, still very easy, but not as easy.

(Gentle 11-12) A Block From Home is actually kinda tricky, especially the bit right at the start. Keep Your Hair On Mr Lemming introduces a new mechanic, but is otherwise a very straightforward level. I thus suggest swapping these two.

(Gentle 13) I'd move Where Do You See Lemmings a bit further back, due to the tight save requirement. Somewhere around 20 should work well.

(Gentle 23-24) Lemmings In The Attic, on the other hand, should be a little bit earlier, probably close to (but before) Rainbow Island. Darkness Of The Royal Family should be even earlier than Lemmings In The Attic; while it does only give 5 of most skills, it gives 10 builders, and 5 of each skill is more than enough here.

(Quirky 4) I feel this is way too early for Dolly Dimple. I'd actually consider this to be a fairly hard level, definitely worthy of being in a later rank than Quirky.

(Quirky 6) Postcard From Lemmingland, it's in the right rank but I think it should be later. Keep in mind this level was a major roadblock for many players on their first playthrough.

(Quirky 9) With A Little Help From My Lem, if I'm not mistaken, requires one to be quite precise. It originates from the NES version which operates on a tile-basis even for physics, so precision is not an issue there. While the position is fine, I think some adjustments to address this may be needed.

(Quirky 13) Across The Gap; I remember struggling a lot with this one when I first encountered it. However, looking at it now I'm not sure how I found it hard. Anyone else feel this way about this one? If so, we might want to consider moving it to a later position.

(Quirky 21) The Crankshaft; I think this level could go a bit earlier. Somewhere near Postcard From Lemmingland, but not right before or after it feels right, I think?

(Quirky 22) Compression Method 1; position is fine but the traps should either have no overwrite on, or be moved up one pixel (so the top of the trigger platform is at the top of the blocks). I personally would prefer the no overwrite approach.

(Zany 5) I think the trick from Let's Get Together, unless there's another solution I'm not aware of, is a bit too advanced for this position. It should probably go into the next rank.

(Zany 7) The Run Around belongs in early Quirky at best, I think. Don't get me wrong, it's a really fun level, but it's not hard at all.

(Zany 13) Let's Go Camping; based off the "remove the digger" fix, this is WAY too hard for this position and belongs near the end of the game. GREAT level though!

(Zany 17) Mr Lemming Lives Next Door feels like it should be a bit earlier; maybe near the start of Zany, or even late Quirky.

(Zany 19) Tunnel Vision is too easy for its position; this one definitely belongs in Quirky.

(Zany 29-30) I think that Temple Of Love feels better as a rank ender than The North Poles.

(Manic 7) Emmings! (No L) is a bit easy for this position, I think. Somewhere around mid-Zany might work?

(Manic 9) Rocky Road, I get the impression falling off the rocks to the right of the entrance should land in the trap trigger area? Might need an adjustment for this. Even with this taken into account, it seems too easy for the position; it's basically just a worker lemming level that requires you to be somewhat conservative of skills.


I'll go over the rest of the pack another time, I think.

[Proxima]

I agree with most of the above. I think ordering is such a big task, it makes sense to divide it up: first decide on which levels should move from one rank to another; then we can work on the ordering within each rank.

I think the Gentle rank is fine as-is (again, just in terms of which levels). Is everyone else happy to sign off on this?

Quirky: Most levels seem okay for rank 2 (though some early levels should come later); but if we do move any levels down into Quirky, we have to move an equal number up.  I propose moving up "I have a cunning plan", "Compression Method 1" and "Mind the step..."

Zany: I agree with namida, "The run around", "Tunnel vision" and "Mr Lemmy lives next door" should move down. "Let's get together" should move up to Manic; "Let's go camping" to Lunatic.

Manic: Move down "Emmings! (No L)" and "Synchronised Lemming". Move up "Fall and no Life (Part Two)".

Lunatic: Move down "Got anything... lemmingy?" and "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground".

[namida]

When dealing with a case where I have, for example, 3 levels that should move down a rank but only 2 that should move up, while I do consider the possibility of moving an extra one up, I also in these cases consider simply moving the remainder level to near the start / end (as applicable) of the rank it's currently in. As such, I don't think it's critical to come up with a list that balances out (yet) if we're just looking at what levels need to be moved to other ranks.

[Nepster]

Before we start discussing, can anyone please post a pack where they already ordered the levels according to their own judgement?
At the moment I have a big problem evaluating the average difficulty of the ranks, because easy and hard levels are totally mixed. At the moment I see "Oh No, Squish" at the very end of Lunatic, while I consider "Flow Control" in Zany to be harder than "Oh No, Squish". None were considered as candidates to move yet, so I wonder whether this just got overlooked, or whether my estimated difficulty is way off?
Then there are levels like "Race against cliches", "It's all a matter of timing" and "No hurry, Relax" (in Manic), which I all consider relatively hard even for Manic (especially "No hurry, Relax"). Then follow "Lemming Lament" and "Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility", which (especially by comparison to the previous levels) are far easier. So now I have the problem to decide: Are the first few too hard for Manic and should be moved later, or are the following ones too easy and should be moved to earlier ranks, or should they all just be reordered within the rank? To be honest, I have no clue what is the best action, because I have no feeling for the average difficulty of Manic and whether they fit there.

If we already had a rough order, determining the levels that are out-of-place would be much easier for me.

Regarding Gentle: I mainly agree with the levels placed there. But "Where do you see Lemmings" (Gentle 13), "A Spot of Bother" (Gentle 22) and "Quest for Kieran" (Gentle 27) struck me as more difficult than "Vacation in Gemland" (Quirky 10), "The Crankshaft" (Quirky 21), "Pop your top" (Quirky 23) or especially "A Towering Problem" (Zany 9) (given that bomber timing is not an issue any more). I would prefer to see these three levels in early Quirky (which right now feels far more difficult that most of Zany).

[Proxima]

I believe the current pack is already ordered according to bsmith's judgement (with only small changes made subsequently). If you feel it would be helpful for me to suggest a complete reordering according to my own judgement, I'm happy to do that, although I'm worried it would make it even harder for us to reach a consensus

[bsmith]

The current ordering has a lot of room for improvement.  The first and last ranks are the only ones where I am comfortable saying most of the levels in that rank should stay in that rank.  The intermediate ranks are a lot more fluid with difficulty.  I tried to incorporate peoples' early statements about how difficult they found the levels; but I found that over half of the levels which are in the pack were judged to be a medium difficulty.  Most of the easy stuff found its way into Gentle or early Quirky.  Most of the hard stuff got put directly into Lunatic.  I split up the stuff in the middle more on a whim than anything as I think the difficulty is fairly flat across the center third of the pack.

As for the order within each rank, the biggest influence on level ordering was the graphic styles, trying to avoid clusters of the same style; Gentle is an exception as the main influence there was having X-of-everything skillcounts decrease as you progress through the rank. Other than that I put the special graphic levels + Sega 4 as the midpoint of each rank and tried to pick a level I thought would make a good rank finale. (On this note I think Triple Trouble may be better as the Manic finale rather than having it in Lunatic.)

A side note, I am warming up to the rank names Gentle, Quirky, Zany, Manic, Lunatic since I have been mentally appending "Lemmings" behind each rank name.

[Nepster]

I dumped images of all levels and then ordered them according to my preferences, ignoring the existing order or the opinions voiced here already (I just kept the positions of the VGASpecs in the middle of the ranks). So please take the following list as my preference, but not as a suggestion how to compromise the various opinions and get a final list out of it.

I listed my own position, the position in the Redux pack version 0.2.2 and the level name. I marked levels where the position changed by at least one full rank (i.e. 30 levels) via bold type.

Gentle

0101	0101	Just Dig
0102	0102	Only floaters can survive this
0103	0103	Tailor-made for blockers
0104	0104	Now use miners and climbers
0105	0105	You need bashers this time
0106	0106	A task for bombers
0107	0107	Builders will help you here
0108	0109	Snuggle up to a lemming
0109	0108	Downwardly mobile lemmings
0110	0112	Keep your hair on Mr Lemming
0111	0110	Get a little extra help
0112	0111	A block from home
0113	0121	Rainbow Island
0114	0114	Cindyland
0115	0116	A Beast of a level
0116	0119	Let's be careful out there
0117	0223	Pop yor top!!!
0118	0129	Lemming toast
0119	0210	Vacation in Gemland
0120	0117	Patience
0121	0118	You Live and Lem
0122	0124	Darkness of the royal family
0123	0123	Lemmings in the attic
0124	0221	The Cranskshaft
0125	0115	Careless clicking costs lives
0126	0128	Turn around young lemmings
0127	0309	A towering problem
0128	0130	Going their separate ways
0129	0120	Doomsday
0130	0126	Catch more floaters

Quirky

0201	0201	Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy
0202	0125	Pillar talking
0203	0225	No choice but to follow them
0204	0113	Where do you see Lemmings?
0205	0314	Plethora of Presents
0206	0215	Don't panic
0207	0322	Over the wall
0208	0127	Quest for Kieran
0209	0208	Just a quicky
0210	0207	It's Lemmingentry Watson
0211	0212	The long way around
0212	0312	The bridge is breaking down
0213	0227	Go for it!
0214	0319	Tunnel vision
0215	0216	Menacing!!
0216	0427	Take care, Sweetie
0217	0401	And now, the end is near...
0218	0122	A Spot of Bother
0219	0315	No time for a detour
0220	0203	Perserverance
0221	0426	Down the tube
0222	0404	The far side
0223	0224	Meeting Adjourned
0224	0307	The run around
0225	0303	The needs of the many...
0226	0301	Last one out is a rotten egg!
0227	0408	Five alive
0228	0407	Emmings! (No L)
0229	0325	No world without you
0230	0209	With a little help from my Lem

Zany

0301	0220	No justice for the hero
0302	0202	Watch out, there's traps about
0303	0417	The silence of the lemmings
0304	0308	Don't leave any lemmings
0305	0205	The Stack
0306	0219	Mind the step...
0307	0230	And then there were four...
0308	0214	Keep on trucking
0309	0218	Lemtris
0310	0421	Lemming lament
0311	0525	Oh no! Squish
0312	0513	Munity on the bounty
0313	0211	I have a cunning plan
0314	0310	Pitfall
0315	0316	What an awesome level
0316	0204	Dolly Dimple
0317	0422	Lemming tomato ketchup facility
0318	0302	Come on over to my place
0319	0410	Snow joke
0320	0411	Old MacDonald had a farm...
0321	0318	Electric circuit
0322	0317	Mr Lemmy lives next door
0323	0519	Got anything...Lemmingy???
0324	0409	Rocky Road
0325	0424	Onward and Upward
0326	0217	Tension sheet, good idea
0327	0526	Lemmy in the cold, cold around
0328	0206	Postcard from Lemmingsland
0329	0415	Jump down!
0330	0226	Time waits for no Lemming

Manic

0401	0229	Cascade
0402	0511	Which one are you trying to get
0403	0506	Lemming about town
0404	0510	The lemming funhouse
0405	0304	Twins
0406	0518	Scaling the heights
0407	0228	Speed Trap
0408	0326	Upsidedown world
0409	0222	Compression Method 1
0410	0514	Watch right or left (Part Two)
0411	0324	Everyone's a hard nut
0412	0323	Creature Discomforts
0413	0306	Flow Control
0414	0213	Across the gap
0415	0416	A Beast II of a level
0416	0418	The race against cliches
0417	0330	The North Poles
0418	0505	Rocky VI
0419	0504	Poles Apart
0420	0414	Just a minute...
0421	0305	Let's get together
0422	0515	It's not over 'til it's over
0423	0320	Watch your fingertip!
0424	0321	Four play
0425	0413	Synchronised Lemming
0426	0311	Acrophobia
0427	0327	Worra load of old blocks (with traps readded)
0428	0402	With a twist of lemming please
0429	0523	Lemmings in a situation
0430	0503	The Great Lemming Caper

Lunatic

0501	0501	It's hero time
0502	0419	It's all a matter of timing
0503	0528	Triple Trouble
0504	0329	Temple of Love
0505	0429	This Corrosion
0506	0423	Water processing plant
0507	0517	Steel Block Party
0508	0412	Fall and no life
0509	0406	AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
0510	0425	Chill out!
0511	0430	Poor wee creatures!
0512	0520	Evacuating a coal mine
0513	0502	Htere's madness in the method
0514	0403	The gate trap lemmings
0515	0516	SEGA four
0516	0524	Hello John! Get a new lemming?
0517	0521	Fix the road, quick!
0518	0405	Evil whisper
0519	0508	Down along, up. In that order
0520	0328	Move on in two sepearate groups.
0521	0509	Anxiety
0522	0512	Just a minute (Part Two)
0523	0428	Fall and no life (Part two)
0524	0420	No hurry, Relax.
0525	0529	Save Me
0526	0522	Out, away from the tune
0527	0527	I am A.T.
0528	0313	Let's go camping (without the digger)
0529	0507	No added colours or lemmings
0530	0530	Lemmings' Ark