"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[Wafflem]

On a more techinical note, where can I get the four special tunes for the original special graphic levels?

I've attached a ZIP of them to this post. Can't help you with the Sunsoft one, though.

Here is the Sunsoft Special music. I found it in one of the archives while searching for lost levelpacks.

[Minim]

This NXP has 162 levels divided into 6 ranks.  The first five ranks have 30 levels each and are intended to be the final ranks (not necessarily with the levels currently in them).  The sixth "extra" rank has the overflow from the 150 level target.  These 12 levels are 12 of the levels which someone has raised some objection to in the last few pages of the this topic.

It's interesting that you created a sixth rank containing the extra levels. I've found out on my spreadsheet which ones I've criticised.

1. 'Tribute to M.C. Escher' I found the intended solution too builder-heavy.
11. 'Dolly Dimple' There are two levels called 'Dolly Dimple', created with different graphic sets and skillsets. The ONML version (in the redux) involves too much building to get the last lemming home, while the Prima version (in the extra rank) is a decent albeit quite an easy puzzle. I might suggest changing the requirement total of the ONML version to 79/80, provided that it doesn't create any new backroutes. Otherwise, remove it and replace it with the Prima version.

[bsmith]

If it were up to me I would have just tossed those 12 levels, but because this is a group project I created the extra rank so that all the nominated levels would be accessible in the pack.  If no changes are made to level selection then it will be trivial to cut the extra rank out when the later stages focus on polish and details.

I think the five main ranks are in a good shape overall, but I am biased since I created the ordering.

[namida]

11. 'Dolly Dimple' There are two levels called 'Dolly Dimple', created with different graphic sets and skillsets. The ONML version (in the redux) involves too much building to get the last lemming home, while the Prima version (in the extra rank) is a decent albeit quite an easy puzzle. I might suggest changing the requirement total of the ONML version to 79/80, provided that it doesn't create any new backroutes. Otherwise, remove it and replace it with the Prima version.

Aren't we generally avoiding modifications unless it's to fix backroutes?

[Minim]

11. 'Dolly Dimple' There are two levels called 'Dolly Dimple', created with different graphic sets and skillsets. The ONML version (in the redux) involves too much building to get the last lemming home, while the Prima version (in the extra rank) is a decent albeit quite an easy puzzle. I might suggest changing the requirement total of the ONML version to 79/80, provided that it doesn't create any new backroutes. Otherwise, remove it and replace it with the Prima version.

Aren't we generally avoiding modifications unless it's to fix backroutes?

Sorry; you're right. If we keep changing save requirements then this redux project may get out of hand.

Speaking of backroutes; I discovered that in "Quest for Kieran" (Currently in Rank 1, Level 28) that under NeoLemmix Mechanics you are able to stretch your builders so that all lemmings reach the exit. After some testing, if we move the exit platform by two pixels to the left then that would fix the problem.

[Dullstar]

In regards to Dolly Dimple:

While changing the requirements for levels could potentially get out of hand, I think in a few limited cases it could be justified. Assuming the current is 80/80 _{(Suggestion: Don't say you changed the requirement to X; say you changed the requirement from Y to X; this makes it easier if someone doesn't recall the requirements off the top of their head)}, 79/80 for Dolly Dimple might not be unreasonable. I think the ONML version is slightly more interesting than the other version, but it is certainly builder-heavy.  I don't remember how much extra building that one extra lemming takes to save off the top of my head, though, so I don't know if the 79/80 change would actually solve the problem.

That said, I would propose the following restriction on changes to save requirements (not counting changes made to prevent backroutes):
- Can only make the save requirement looser (e.g. from 80/80 to 79/80 is okay, but from 79/80 to 80/80 is not)
- Should only be done in situations where it is obvious how to save the remaining lemmings but tedious to do so

[namida]

After some testing, if we move the exit platform by two pixels to the left then that would fix the problem.

Unless there's some other detail I'm overlooking (which is possible), if it'd need a two pixel change, it's probably still possible in the standard game. If it'd only need a one pixel change, it could indeed be a NeoLemmix-only thing (as left-facing builders stretch one pixel less far in the DOS games compared to NeoLemmix; right-facing builders are unaffected).

[Dullstar]

After some testing, if we move the exit platform by two pixels to the left then that would fix the problem.

Unless there's some other detail I'm overlooking (which is possible), if it'd need a two pixel change, it's probably still possible in the standard game. If it'd only need a one pixel change, it could indeed be a NeoLemmix-only thing (as left-facing builders stretch one pixel less far in the DOS games compared to NeoLemmix; right-facing builders are unaffected).

Is this level present in any DOS version? I'm not familiar with the level off the top of my head.

[namida]

Frost 9 from Holiday Lemmings 94.

[bsmith]

I have two different solutions for ONML Dolly Dimple.  In my anti-splat build solution I use a total of six builders.  In my everybody over the left side solution I use only three builders. 
Changing the save requirement from 80 to 79 saves only one builder in the first solution (and that builder is just a one brick lemming turnaround) and no builders saved in the second.  So, I don't think changing the save requirement will have any real effect on solutions.  I still prefer this level over the other Dolly Dimple level.

I have always solved Quest for Kieran with just two builders and a miner.  If this is a backroute then I have no idea what the intended solution is.
The exit platform could be moved four pixels to the left and have no effect on my solution.   Moving it six pixels would just make the final builder pixel precise.

[Dullstar]

6 builders isn't too bad IMO, especially considering we have the ability to skip forward and it just so happens that the default is about the same amount of time as a builder takes.

[bsmith]

I had some time recently to take another look at the current Redux pack.  Some more thoughts on some levels:

In 'Tunnel Vision' (currently rank 3 level 19) a climber can safely ascend past the spike trap but gets killed when falling down past it.  Is this okay?

In 'Lemmintaschen?' (currently rank 4 level 2) it is possible to bash between two of the steel blocks.  Is this a backroute due to Neolemmix steel?  I think I remember in the DOS version that the steel area covered the snow between the visible portions of the steel pates.

In 'Poles Apart' (currently rank 5 level 4) is the ceiling route possible?  If so it could make a good talisman.

Out of all the levels (including the 12 alternates currently in the Extra rank) these are the ones I think should keep a time limit:
2-27 Just A Quicky
2-28 Speed Trap
3-15 No Time for a Detour
3-21 Four Play
4-8 Five Alive
4-13 Synchronized Lemmings
4-14 Just A Minute
4-17 The Silence of the Lemmings
4-24 Onward and Upward
5-1 Its Hero Time
5-6 Lemming About Town
5-12 Just A Minute (Part Two)
5-18 Scaling the Heights
5-24 Hello John Got A New Lemming
5-26 Oh No! Squish
Ex-2 2 Minutes Before Midnight
Ex-5 Just A Minute (Part Three)
I am thinking that 'Just A Quicky' can be moved up earlier in the pack: rank 2 level 4 seems like a good place in my opinion.  Right now this list of timed levels is weighted towards the end of the pack, which I am okay with.

I am thinking that in the next Redux version I will remove the 12 extra levels since there seems to be no objections to the 150 levels in the five main ranks.  I plan to wait for version 1.48 to become the official stable release so that the special graphic levels use the new graphic set mixing as opposed to the soon-to-be depreciated VGASPEC system.

[namida]

In 'Tunnel Vision' (currently rank 3 level 19) a climber can safely ascend past the spike trap but gets killed when falling down past it.  Is this okay?

Probably not. This might be something better addressed via trigger area changes than level changes; depending on how the trap is generally placed in levels. (In the case of the flamethrower trap in the fire set, I fixed this via trigger area changes a long time ago.)

In 'Lemmintaschen?' (currently rank 4 level 2) it is possible to bash between two of the steel blocks.  Is this a backroute due to Neolemmix steel?  I think I remember in the DOS version that the steel area covered the snow between the visible portions of the steel pates.

If it shouldn't be possible, place extra steel between them. Make sure it isn't possible on DOS first (or that it doesn't significantly affect the level's solution).


With that being said, let's leave level modifications until we're more or less settled on a level list.

[Minim]

I am thinking that in the next Redux version I will remove the 12 extra levels since there seems to be no objections to the 150 levels in the five main ranks.

Hang on; there is one level in the 150 that I think should be removed: "Fix the road, quick!" (Currently in 5-21) I've stated this in my spreadsheet but never mentioned this in the forums; With this level being builders only and that there are gaps to fix, a level concept that involves building gaps with other lemmings while creating a path is so boring and tedious. Havoc 12, another builders only level, uses a concept that is much better. This level is a lot shorter than the other one and requires fairly precise builder placements.

I'll have a look at the rest of your earlier post later on, but thought I might mention this first to get that out of the way.

[namida]

In regards to waiting for V1.48n - levels that use the default VGASPECs will work fine with V1.48n, because V1.48n can auto-patch these to use graphic set mixing instead (nonetheless, the copies of levels in recent NXPs have been updated to use graphic set mixing anyway). It's only custom ones that need special attention.

However, my intention for Redux is to include it packaged in with the new-formats version of NeoLemmix, whenever that ends up coming. Of course, if it's ready before then, there's no reason not to offer a copy that's compatible with current versions at the time. This is just why I haven't treated it as a particularly high priority for now.