"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[bsmith]

I'll agree with you regarding Just a Minute Part 3.  It does seem simple enough to either shrink the one way area or add a veneer to the top of the brick to fix the level.

I don't think that the PS3 ports will be a good fit.  Those levels make extensive use of teleporters and pickup skills - neither of which are found anywhere in the current list of levels.

[bsmith]

Update time!

This set of 153 levels takes the set of 146 from earlier and incorporates changes I summarized in a previous post.  Just a Minute (Part 3) is still in this set since it can be fixed.  Also, I added Frost 3 Cindyland to the first rank, adding that level was also discussed earlier in the thread.

The first rank starts with the seven introductory levels, then three Tame levels, then various X-of-everything levels with small values of X mostly occuring later; finally, the puzzle levels are at the end of the rank.  In general, the other ranks are in a rough sort avoiding putting levels with matching tilesets close to one another.

I have attached the nxp and a spreadsheet of the levels.

So, it seems to me that the next step is to choose which three levels to exclude and to make adjustments for placement of this compilaiton.

[Proxima]

No, we're not necessarily done with additions. I think, given the current status and the fact that we want to finalise the list of included levels so we can start work on ordering, the next step should be to make a final call for suggestions for additions, and any that are suggested should be put to a vote (whether by a forum poll or just by getting people to post). Then, decide which levels to remove to get back down to exactly 150.

At the moment, my suggestions for additions are:

* Special graphics levels, which should be kept as one per rank rather than sorted according to difficulty. There was an early consensus in favour of keeping the special graphics levels, which seems to have been disregarded in the latest lists for no apparent reason.

* Other 4 "Lane of Lament" is a really strong level that got missed somehow.

* Sunsoft 9 "Evacuating a coal mine" was included in the earlier lists. Nepster suggested removing it, but I disagreed, so there was never a consensus to remove it.

* Levels 2 and 3 of Lemmings 2 Classic. As we seem to have a majority agreement in favour of including remakes of PSP and ZX levels, there's no reason not to extend this to L2 levels, and I think these two would make the cut.

I've watched Wafflem's videos of the PS3 remakes, and I don't think we should include those. Nearly all levels use teleporters and pickup skills; the remakes look very bland compared to the majority of original levels; I haven't seen any with particularly interesting solutions.

[namida]

* Special graphics levels, which should be kept as one per rank rather than sorted according to difficulty. There was an early consensus in favour of keeping the special graphics levels, which seems to have been disregarded in the latest lists for no apparent reason.

I'm okay either way on this one. However, if we aren't including one per rank, I am very strongly in favor of not including them at all.

* Other 4 "Lane of Lament" is a really strong level that got missed somehow.

Agreed. The main thing that could hurt this level is that it relied somewhat heavily on timed bombers; which is no longer a problem in NeoLemmix.
I think you mean "Lemming Lament", though. "Lane Of Lament" is a level from one of my old Cheapo packs.

* Sunsoft 9 "Evacuating a coal mine" was included in the earlier lists. Nepster suggested removing it, but I disagreed, so there was never a consensus to remove it.

I'm in favor of including this one, but it'd be quite far down the list - if we need to leave it out to make room for better levels, that's okay.

[Minim]

* Special graphics levels, which should be kept as one per rank rather than sorted according to difficulty. There was an early consensus in favour of keeping the special graphics levels, which seems to have been disregarded in the latest lists for no apparent reason.

Out of the 150 levels that I originally included the only level that I found the most interesting out of the four special levels is the Mayhem version. The Fun version is just an elongated version of 'A Block from Home', 'Menacing' is just boring near the end with too much building to do and the 'Awesome' level's process isn't too much different to 'Menacing', but makes it more annoying by adding randomly placed stars, making the builder turn back every time he hits one.

* Other 4 "Lane of Lament" is a really strong level that got missed somehow.

* Sunsoft 9 "Evacuating a coal mine" was included in the earlier lists. Nepster suggested removing it, but I disagreed, so there was never a consensus to remove it.

I like them both too. They're both solid puzzles. That's why they were in my top 150.

* Levels 2 and 3 of Lemmings 2 Classic. As we seem to have a majority agreement in favour of including remakes of PSP and ZX levels, there's no reason not to extend this to L2 levels, and I think these two would make the cut.

I'm just wondering, where can I download these levels?

[namida]

* Levels 2 and 3 of Lemmings 2 Classic. As we seem to have a majority agreement in favour of including remakes of PSP and ZX levels, there's no reason not to extend this to L2 levels, and I think these two would make the cut.

I'm just wondering, where can I download these levels?

Anywhere you can download a copy of Lemmings 2. I don't know if anyone's remade them for NL yet (which someone would have to do in order to include them in this project).

[Wafflem]

Proxima remade the three L2 Classic levels in this post.

[Minim]

Thanks, Wafflem! Didn't see your post until today so I got my chance to play those recreated L2 levels.

Here's my verdict:

1: The blocks are a bit oversized (Although that can't be helped) but nonetheless is a great level to experiment with altogether. I just wish the exit platform could be thinner but nevermind. The level layout is what it is.
2: It's quite a journey to reach the other side before building a bridge but not a bad puzzle. It's like an easier version of ROCKY VI, another good level with a similar concept. At least I've been unsuccesful in trying to backroute it.
3: Personally I'm not a fan of this one, even though there's a lot of experimentation for the players: You could just bash the first four blocks and it would still be too easy to tackle the last three.

So with all three of them I'm hanging on the fence, leaning slightly towards keep. Comparing them to the ones I initially selected to add back in June (Havoc 3, Havoc 17 and Mayhem 12) if I had to select three levels I would definitely keep all three L2 levels. Those other levels were only in the case of emergency.

[bsmith]

Of the three remade L2 levels, the only one I think that should be included is level 2.  Minim summed it up nicely with his statement that it is like an easier version of ROCKY VI.  I think this level would fit nicely in late-tricky or taxing rank.

The first level is a decent sandbox level, but I don't think it is very inspiring.

The third level might be worth something with a different skillset.  If we do include it then I would want to see a talisman to reflect an interesting solution - something like '100% with no builders'.

[namida]

The third level might be worth something with a different skillset.  If we do include it then I would want to see a talisman to reflect an interesting solution - something like '100% with no builders'.

Changing the skillset is something I'd rather avoid, except in very limited cases:
- Removing blockers on levels that use them solely to avoid the need to time bombers (since NL bombers are instant anyway) - this could possibly be extended to skills that aren't nessecary under NL for other reasons
- If extra skills are needed to keep the usual solution possible on NeoLemmix (eg: "Out, Away From The Tune" needed this)
- As part of a backroute fix

Certianly, giving a new skillset to an existing level to keep it interesting is not a valid reason. The correct action here would be to not include that level; if it's worthwhile as an easy level, then indeed making the more-restrictive variant a talisman is a possible approach.

[bsmith]

For everyone's consideration, I have built the rest of the Lemmings 2 Classic Tribe levels and made a pack with all ten levels.  All ten levels start with 60 lemmings and have a save requirement reduced by the number of bombers available.  Level 6 has one extra builder for splat height reasons.

[Minim]

Right. I've downloaded it, and managed to solve 9 of the 10 levels. The only level I can't solve is Level 7. Basically on this level you have 8 builders, and you need 6 of them to ascend to the steel platform above. The job is made more difficult by the limited area on the left, meaning that you can't build 6 clean stairs without having to be blocked by another lemming that needs to be released. This requires perfect timing.

You also need one builder to build to the ceiling and another to build to the exit. Near the end where you dig down the sandy wall, I run out of builders when I really need one to stop the digger.

Whether I solve this level or not there's no reason why I should put this one in the redux, especially considering that's there's a lot of building to do.

The last six levels (WTF?) are ridiculously boring to execute and should be left aside. Level 4 isn't too bad because it requires lemmings to go both ways in order to solve it. I also quite like the idea of 'making a bridge but think of something to turn him round as well'. Still, it isn't as good as the first three IMO.

[bsmith]

My thoughts on the L2 Classic is similar to what Minim has already stated.  Then it looks like levels 2, 3, and 4 are candidates in the Redux.

I have been playing with the special graphic levels recently.  If we include them (which looks likely) I suggest placing one in each of the first four ranks and place the only nominated Sega level in the final rank.  Since that Sega level is the only one included then it can act as a 5th special graphic so each rank has one level with unique graphics.
I have a few Talisman ideas to go along with the special levels:
:tal-bronze:Beat Menacing with only 7 builders.
:tal-silver:Beat Beast 1 using no more than 3 of each skill.
:tal-gold:Save 100% on Beast 2 without using bashers.

Adding these levels plus Other 4 and Sunsoft 9 will take the level count to 162.  So at this point I will again ask are we done with nominating levels to include?

[bsmith]

I have compiled a new current status NXP.  This is for the new v1.47 Neolemmix engine.

This NXP has 162 levels divided into 6 ranks.  The first five ranks have 30 levels each and are intended to be the final ranks (not necessarily with the levels currently in them).  The sixth "extra" rank has the overflow from the 150 level target.  These 12 levels are 12 of the levels which someone has raised some objection to in the last few pages of the this topic.

Any thoughts on inclusions, exclusions or ordering?

Should levels using the Genesis tilesets be converted to the corresponding original tilesets?  (I expect to wait to do this after the editor gets its updated build officially released.)

What about music files?  Should we have a distinct song for each graphic set?
On a more techinical note, where can I get the four special tunes for the original special graphic levels?

[namida]

Should levels using the Genesis tilesets be converted to the corresponding original tilesets?  (I expect to wait to do this after the editor gets its updated build officially released.)

I could see this one going either way. One offers more consistency, while the other is more true to the original forms of these levels.

What about music files?  Should we have a distinct song for each graphic set?

Hmm, interesting idea. If we're (presumably) using the Orig and OhNo tracks, this means that a handful of tracks will be used more than once per rank. If we tie it to the graphic set instead, this effect could be less noticable; as well as allowing for Xmas-y music on any Holiday Lemmings levels that are included.

On a more techinical note, where can I get the four special tunes for the original special graphic levels?

I've attached a ZIP of them to this post. Can't help you with the Sunsoft one, though.