[DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?

[Wafflem]

Aside from the most popular ones, if there is one gimmick that is worth keeping, it's Cheapo Mode. We need this gimmick to be able to emulate some Cheapo mechanics if we convert all the available Cheapo levels, as without that, some levels in Copycat Lemmings or the Cheapo levels become impossible due to this. Also, the removal may harm some levels in Revenge of the Lemmings like Devious 18 "Lemmings of Persia" and Armageddon 12 "The Hotel in Hell".

[namida]

I'm not sure how I feel about keeping that. I think that if we're looking to actually put the levels into NeoLemmix packs, they should be properly remade. The "Cheapo Mode" thing is kind of hacky, brings inconsistencies, and so on; and the motivation behind supporting it was that we otherwise have no way at all to play Cheapo levels on modern PCs, as Cheapo itself performs horribly on them. As long as a NeoLemmix version which remains available (which the last version which retains gimmick / etc support will) can play them, on modern PCs, I don't think it's critical that all future versions do.

Likewise, if Cheapo were ever to be fixed so that it works on modern PCs, I would also consider there to be no need to maintain Cheapo support in NeoLemmix.

[Proxima]

Also, the removal may harm some levels in Revenge of the Lemmings like Devious 18 "Lemmings of Persia" and Armageddon 12 "The Hotel in Hell".

It would be worth taking the time to correct those levels so that Cheapo Mode is not necessary. I assume it's mainly a matter of the fall distance? But for a compilation pack like RotL where these levels appear in the midst of others with standard mechanics, it's unfair to suddenly change the safe fall distance for a level here and there without warning. Consistency > faithfulness to the original. Anyway, I think Lemmings of Persia is mainly a "float down, build up" level, so you could compensate by adding a couple of extra builders? Hotel in Hell uses standard graphics (Fire style), so you could adjust the spacing of the terrain pieces.

[607]

Ah, found the topic, nice.
So... I don't like secret level triggers, unless it's very clearly stated where you need to go. I do like unlocking secret levels by completing every level in a rank or getting talismans.
Now for the gimmicks: I like the idea, but most are way too gimmick-y and not useful at all.
I was planning on using four different gimmicks in my own pack, though.
I think the gimmicks I like would be:
Backwards lemmings
Karoshi
One skill per Lemming
Nonfatal bombers
Unalterable terrain
Assign to all

The ones I really dislike:
Frenzy
Clock
Disobedience

The other ones, I don't really know, I wouldn't mind if they were kept, I wouldn't instantly miss them if they were 'culled' (I think I learnt a new word this week)

[Flopsy]

I liked the gimmick levels when I played the Neo Lemmix introduction pack but if a majority of them had to go for sake of simplicity in coding then that would be fine.

I feel like I've missed out a lot on when the gimmicks were progressing in Neo Lemmix but I can always play catch up on an older version of Neo Lemmix if necessary.

It should be noted that unless the gimmick was in the Neo Lemmix Intro pack, I have not encountered them so I'm only referring to the ones in that pack.


I'm not a fan of secret levels because I'm not the sort of person who sends Lemmings on exploration missions so I wouldn't find the majority of them (if any!?).

Not sure if this is being discussed but I like the idea of Talismans as I'm someone who is a fan of the achievement/trophy system on PS and Xbox.

[namida]

After some consideration, I feel that the best answer is to simply remove all of them; even including Superlemming. While some may be quite fun, I do think they go against the increasingly-strong desire for consistency.

NeoLemmix V1.43n-B (or whatever the last version that supports them ends up being) will remain available even after newer versions get released, to ensure that a version that supports gimmicks is available for those who want to play old levels that use them. In particular, it willl be important for converted-from-Cheapo levels, since NeoLemmix conversions are currently the optimal way to play Cheapo-origin levels on modern PCs where Cheapo itself doesn't work very nicely.

Wrap-around might eventually see reintroduction as a proper feature, most likely implemented in a fashion more similar to how Lix handles it than how NeoLemmix currently does. In regards to deadly sides, I would rather not have the behaviour of the sides differ between levels; I am open to changing the behaviour in general but would like one common behaviour across all levels. There is a seperate topic for discussing this: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2537.0


In regards to secret levels, it was raised on IRC several days ago that while secret level triggers are annoying, secret levels themself aren't nessecerially so bad if unlocked via less-annoying means, including the current alternative option of unlocking them by obtaining talismans. I am almost certianly going to remove secret level triggers, but I'd like further discussion on whether these other methods of reaching secret levels should be kept, or if the secret level concept should be ditched altogether.


Once I'm finished removing the code for gimmicks (since that'll tidy things up a lot) - and probably doing some other general tidy-up of physics code (the remove-commented-out-or-never-used-code type, not the actually-change-anything type) - I'll probably create topics for every action in a similar vein to the current topic on Climbers. This way, we can both discuss if there are changes that need to be made, and potentially spot bugs more easily. At the moment, I've made a version that's gimmick-free, but the code to actually implement the effects of gimmicks is still mostly there (apart from Superlemming and Bait-and-Switch; it also doesn't display the modified preview/postview screens for Karoshi, but the in-game code for it is still there), LemGame.pas's "TLemmingGame.CheckGimmick" function (used to check if a level has a certain gimmick on it) just always returns FALSE. Actually stripping out the code that implements them is the next step.

[IchoTolot]

Does this mean only the gimmick window stuff?

Cause as the Zombie thing is now natural supported and as a little defender of already existing content I have to be on the side of the bigger Zombie packs
As I understand it now: Everything goes out of the window, except the Zombie stuff. Am I right or is this a missunderstanding?

[namida]

I'm not sure on that one. My initial thought was to scrap those too, but there is a stronger argument for keeping zombies than there is for any of the others.

On one hand, they don't interfere with the code too much (basically just require code to make them not interact with a few types of objects), and are established to a much stronger level than most other gimmicks, I guess I can consider keeping zombies as a core feature. Ghosts don't really seem to be either useful enough or popular enough to bother - so we'll get rid of them while they're still that way.

One reason against them is that they do complicate the graphical side of things. Currently, lemming sprites are very consistent, so a simple hack can be used to make trap / teleporter animations work for zombies - when displaying the animation replace the normal lemming skin color with the zombie skin color. Especially as we get into higher-res graphics - or those (eg. the bee trap from LPV) where the lemming's tone changes during the trap animation - the only way to have proper graphics when a zombie is killed is to specifically require the set designers to make two versions of the animation - a regular version and a zombie version.

[GigaLem]

Ghosts don't really seem to be either useful enough or popular enough to bother - so we'll get rid of them while they're still that way.

I was gonna make a level pack with ghosts, i loved the feature, I dont want to see potential gone, i dont want them removed
(if that is the case then, I guess i'll stop upgrading neolemmix )

[namida]

If you really want to not upgrade, that's your call, but be aware that your packs wont' work with newer versions, and most other people's packs won't work with your version, not to mention once the content database goes up, your copy of NeoLemmix won't work with that either. The last version of NeoLemmix that does support them will remain available, but that'll mostly be for the sake of playing older content that isn't supported anymore - not to encourage people to continue creating it. I don't intend to leave the older editor available, unless another reason to do so comes up (eg. if it becomes impossible or over-complicated to continue supporting SuperLemmini).

It's partly my fault for sure, for introducing too much new, gimmicky stuff in the first place that really doesn't need to be there. But now is the best time to clear that up - while there's still very little content that uses it, rather than waiting until there's even more.

[IchoTolot]

Zombies:
I am 100% for keeping Zombies (even though i personally don't plan anything to do with them in the near fututre), as I think they add enough value to the game to keep them. + there is quite a lot of content created with it by now that is worth to protect! (RGL, MobiLems 2, DoomsdayLemmings....). Also as you said they don't interfere with the code too much.

Ghosts:
I don't see them as really useful, too. Even the concept i find quite weird and didn't really understand all the cases of interaction with them. And the only released content with them is your own. There are just a bunch non-released levels I assume.

[namida]

For those who are in favor of retaining zombies - do you have any proposals on the best way to handle trap / teleporter / etc graphics for them, keeping in mind the possibility that they may have to work together with custom lemming graphics? (Which now that I think about it, those in themself could probably do with a way to work better with custom lemming graphics.)

@Simon: How does Lix handle this in regards to triggered traps, with the varying colors in multiplayer; in case something similar may be an option for handling custom lemming graphics / zombies?

[IchoTolot]

How is it handeled right now?

Maybe simply switch out clolors a,b,c of the Lemming and replace them with the zomble equivalent. This could run into problems if an animation uses the exact same colorcode as one part of the Lemming.

[Simon]

Lix multiplayer trap handling: When a trap is open, lems from different teams can be eaten at the same time, but at most 1 per team. When at least 1 lemming has been fed to the trap, it starts one cycle of killing animation. During the killing animation, the trap is safe for all teams, even for those that haven't fed it.

-- Simon

[namida]

How is it handeled right now?

Maybe simply switch out clolors a,b,c of the Lemming and replace them with the zomble equivalent. This could run into problems if an animation uses the exact same colorcode as one part of the Lemming.

Yes, the latter is a potential problem. Current handling is to replace any pixel that's colored like regular lemming skin with the color of zombie skin. This already would fail on, eg. the Bee trap in LPV, since the skin reddens as the animation continues - as soon as it changes, the lemming will appear in normal colors rather than zombie colors.

One possibility is to do something similar to the "masking" in system graphics, but for lemming colors. This would need to support multiple possible colors though, so short of having a seperate mask for every color I'm still not really sure how to best do this while future-proofing it for supporting alpha blending.

Lix multiplayer trap handling: When a trap is open, lems from different teams can be eaten at the same time, but at most 1 per team. When at least 1 lemming has been fed to the trap, it starts one cycle of killing animation. During the killing animation, the trap is safe for all teams, even for those that haven't fed it.

I'm meaning in terms of graphically - how does it handle drawing the correct colors?