[Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (WIP)

[namida]

I'd guess that for Fun 28, the fastest solution would be a Mayhem 5-like route, using climbers and floaters to release the lemmings at the optimal times. Perhaps rather than climbers, a setup of good timing with bashing out the side and digging down a layer would prove more optimal.

I don't know how well I described this, so I'll have a go at performing an optimal solution in NeoLemmix and you can watch the replay and see if it helps. 1286 frames; might need a few more in Genesis due to the right-facing entrance.

(I am assuming that Fun 28 isn't one of the replaced ones... if it is, let me know the name and I'll take a look at it.)

EDIT: "Frames" in NeoLemmix is synonymous with what you call "physics update cycles" in this topic. So, assuming 3 or 4 frames per PUC, it'd be 3858 ~ 5144 frames. This still might be an improvement. And it can probably be improved further.

[ccexplore]

A route using the sliding glitch may well be a contender for Fun 28.  See attached for general setup (crowd compression setup left as reader's exercise).  It definitely uses less build steps (~26 vs 50) than a Mayhem-5-style solution, but admittedly it's also offset by the extra amount of sliding up, bashing, and falling back down the route will take, so it's hard to say for sure which actually ends up better time-wise.  There's also possibly the ceiling route, but it's even harder to determine how many build steps that'd take, and how having somewhat less falling but potentially more bashing (etc.) would affect the total time needed.

[namida]

Would it be quicker to, rather than sliding all the way up, time a bomber to go off at the right height to build to the exit from? Although I'm not sure how you'd go about getting a worker there too.

[Gronkling]

I'm not quite sure how well the sliding solution will work as there is a small gap between the top and the exit platform.



This may be able to be able to be built over, however attempting to place a brick that close to the top of the screen causes the builder to fall through the brick it placed. I used some memory pokes to place a lemming where the sliders would end up, and bashing does end up very short of the platform.



It is probably possible to get there if you were to also use diggers or miners, but it would take even longer.

Namida's regular mayhem 5 route so far is the fastest, my first draft of it takes 4916 frames (so neolemmix frames do mean 1 PUC).
My earlier attempts were ceiling routes, though these are very very hard to optimise, even 30 builders are not enough to work with.

[ccexplore]

Interesting.  Looks like the top-boundary behavior is slightly different in Genesis and may cause some inconvenience that aren't present in DOS Lemmings. The memory poke is a good idea for testing purposes, can you give me the (x, y) values you are using?

Incidentally, when I examine it in DOS I had the lemming starting a few pixels even higher so that it wouldn't need to build over that gap you are falling through.

[Gronkling]

I used y value 0, which causes the lemming to just clip down to the highest possible place (y=8). X-value was 50 there, though it could be anything lower too. So (50,0)

[namida]

Hm, I didn't think about going right to the top and bashing across. Perhaps if you start from a bit lower (time a bomber to achieve this?) you can actually manage the build to the exit. Depending on the timing with the basher, you might be able to build without any further crowd control tactics; if not, a well-placed blocker near the left side may cut off some unnessecary frames.

[Gronkling]

There's a lot of overhang that makes building very difficult, here's a build from y=15 which takes ~550 frames.

[namida]

Could you perhaps use a bomber, then start two bashers, one a bit higher than the other, to get rid of some/all of that overhang? Somewhat like the setup used here, but using a bomber instead of the as-is terrain layout to set it up:

https://youtu.be/wKJmaO-8FVQ?t=6m31s

(Which reminds me... now that that level is no longer officially part of Lemmings Plus series, I should make a new level that uses that trick in some way...)

[ccexplore]

This is how I've adjusted the endgame portion so far, for Genesis with a sliding solution.

To test this, I got 70 lemmings out, then modified game memory to move all of them to x=26, y=33, facing left, sliding.  The y part is arbitrary, the x part matches where my proposed sliding route should put the lemmings at.  Starting from the frame where the sliding crowd reaches the top, it takes 752 frames before reaching the attached screenshot where you first see the crowd exit.

So it looks like I started the builder at y=12.  2 miners were used to get there from y=8, and since a miner lowers you fully within its first few update cycles in the stroke, I can relatively quickly switch over to bashing or building.  3 build steps are needed rather than just 2, since Genesis doesn't allow the lemming to get as high as you can in DOS.  And it turns out speed-bashing doesn't really work at the top in Genesis (lemmings tend to jump as they reach the end of bash tunnel where the latest bash stroke is only partially there, and near the top, unlike at more normal elevation, jumping easily turns lemmings around).

[Gronkling]

I can't seem to get that sliding set-up you had with the basher at the bottom of the pillar. I've included a movie that gets up to around the point where that would be created in case you want to try, for now I'm going to try and work on optimising the mayhem 5 technique.

[607]

What is sliding?

[Gronkling]

What is sliding?

It's a glitch where lemmings get stuck in their jumping state, which is a 'hidden skill' that causes vertical upwards movement and normally happens just to walk over 3-6 pixel steps. If you time a builder incredibly precisely so that it occurs whist a lemming is jumping up to that higher piece of terrain, the jumper gets stuck in its jumping state moving vertically upwards until it reaches open space. It looks like this:



It's very versatile and useful, but also very hard to pull off.

[ccexplore]

I can't seem to get that sliding set-up you had with the basher at the bottom of the pillar.

To be fair, I haven't completely worked out the details yet of the setup.  The attached movie shows where to do the remaining builder assignments, but obviously doesn't quite work timing-wise as the crowd died, and in an actual solution, you wouldn't want to have to wait for workers to turn around and walk back to the pillar to finish the setup anyway like in the movie.  Looking at the setup, perhaps it's better to start the building to the pillar two pixels to the right of where we started building in the movie.

In my setup, I also have in mind for the crowd to be held in a digger's pit, between the pit's left wall and a blocker (with a builder to lead lemmings to land in the middle of the pit rather than the right edge of it, so they would get trapped left of the blocker and not the right), which makes it more versatile to send additional workers up via climbers if necessary.  That may or may not be needed to successfully make the sliding setup work, but is something to keep in mind.

I'll work on it a little more later tonight and see if I can get it to work fully.

[mobius]

I don't quite get why you're counting lag as time against you considering the game clock also slows down when lag happens.