Required-saved, out+hatch: display during game

[Clam]

Edit Simon: This topic belongs to a series of related ones:

• Save requirement: show during play
• Required-saved, out+hatch: display during game (this one)
• Add cloners to initial count of lems

I know this has been brought up before, but I've recently started playing a NL pack (Lemmings Reunion ) and this is bothering me. It's also rather important.

Show the save requirement during play. (Not just in the preview.)

I'm constantly having to exit the level to check the requirement, or retry the level because it's not what I thought. Hiding mission objectives creates fake difficulty

This has been reported multiple times over the course of several months. Has there been any progress towards fixing it?

[namida]

There's been an option for a few versions to show relative rather than absolute in counts. It works best with percentages disabled, but can be used even with percentages.

If you enable this option, then for example, on a level that requires you to save 40 lemmings, initially the IN will display as "-40". When it gets up to 0, it means you've reached the requirement, and a positive number essentially means "this many lemmings more than required". In this way, it's similar to how L3D handles this, except displaying the number as negative rather than as a different color.

The option in question is disabled by default; you can turn it on on the config menu (F3 on the title screen).

[Clam]

Just tried this. It helps for sure, and when all the lemmings are out (but not before!) it's exactly the info I need. But if I've lost some already, I still need to go back to find out how many there were to begin with

[Simon]

Showing the save requirement at start is super important. There is no sound reason to hide the save requirement. The argument "ooh but L1 did it and I like that" doesn't hold water; L1 has horrible usability and people are clingy.

The option doesn't do it either. People start the level, pause it before play the level, and need the info at that time. "0 lemmings out, X more lems required" does not, not at all, give the relevant info: how many may die.

If you fix anything in the NL1 branch, this is so much more important than mere cosmetical details. This affects the player on every single map.

If you don't want to fix it right now, point me to the current source, and I'll try make a patch.

-- Simon

[namida]

The main reason it hasn't been done is the limited space in the info area; although perhaps one option is to make the "OUT" display include the lemmings that haven't yet spawned (but are nonetheless alive).

If feelings about it are that strong, I can do a V1.36n-B update adding this option. However, I will wait a while, on the offchance there's any bugs that need to be fixed at the same time.

As for the source - I completely forgot about that for this new update; I'll put it up now.

[Simon]

Yeah, still strong feelings about this.

I'm in rant mood these days, which also means I'm trying to get things done. Thanks for adding the sources to the release post right now. If you want, come online in IRC too. :-)

-- Simon

[namida]

No worries - in general, if I post any NeoLemmix related stuff without the source (except the editor, though the source for that is available on request), feel free to point it out, because it's an oversight, not an intentional withholding.

[namida]

Any other suggestions on how showing this info should be handled, taking into account that in some levels knowing the number of already-spawned lemmings may be important too (Cascade is a good example of such)? Here's one proposal from when this subject was discussed earlier (and had it been brought up again, something could've been done for this release... oh well, I'll do a -B in a few days, just give a chance for any bugs that might've survived to be found first).

Spoiler

From the image, we see the available space:

OUT.2....IN.0....TIME.----

Assertions:
* You love the space to the left of OUT, so we do not touch that.
* Max initial count is 999.
* We can live with a quick and dirty replacement. You have something better planned.

Proposal with out/initial, in/required:

OUT.9/10....IN.0/5....----
OUT.0/10....IN.10/10..----
OUT.89/90...IN.1/60..10-59
OUT.130/200.IN.70/100.4-59
OUT.70/200..IN.130/1004-59 <- required touches time
OUT.200/200.IN.0/100.10-59
OUT.70/200..IN.130/1010-59 <- time overwrites 1 digit of required

This produces ugly touching of digits only whenever all three conditions apply: in >= 100, required >= 100, and a time limit is given. It will even overwrite 1 digit when in >= 100, required >= 100, time >= 10 minutes.

This situation is extremely rare. Levels where you have to save 100 or more are already rare. A level will always start with in = 0, and so the requirement is clearly readable and separated.

A hackjob is acceptable.

-- Simon

[Wafflem]

Would it help to do something similar to holding "Alt" over a lemming to display its permanent skills?

For example, in a level that has 100 lemmings and you have to save 96, if you hold a button (something like "N"), it will show you the number of lemmings that enter the level (as show in the edited screenshot below).

[Simon]

The info is too important to be revealed only on key held:

• The user must know that the info is accessible at all. The game doesn't imply that it is.
• The user must remember the key, which isn't documented inside the game.
• The user must do the same thing on every level start. If it's standard to do something, it should happen automatically.

-- Simon

[namida]

Based on dicussions in #lix, I arrived at the conclusion that any such feature:
- should be an option
- but should be turned on by default

While using a hotkey is a somewhat alternative way of the former; it doesn't really fulfill the latter; unless perhaps the *default* behaviour is to show the total number of lemmings (minus those that have died), and a hotkey changes it to display only those that have already spawned (or those who remain).

[Simon]

The last proposal by me (what you quoted) had:
out/inital, in/required.

This doesn't help when lems die early, and you have to keep track of how many have died already. Better:
(out + hatch)/initial, in/required.

This lacks the ability to count the n-th lem from hatch, but tracks number of died lems. If that doesn't satisfy still, here's food for brainstorming.

The useful stats, from most important to least important, are:

• allowed kills left, this is equal to out + hatch + in - required,
  
• out + hatch = initial - died - exited, and this is equal to initial at start of play,
  
• required, which can be replaced by saved - required, I don't care much,
  
• died, this is OK when initial and required are shown, redundant if out + hatch is shown,
  
• initial, which remains constant, and can be left out if out + hatch is shown,
  
• hatch,
  
• saved,
  
• out, which is useless at start of level, and doesn't let you deduce what you want necessarily.
  

-- Simon

[Nepster]

Not sure I totally agree with Simon's list. The most important stats are in my opinion:

• allowed kills left: Yes, useful and important for many levels.
• required - saved: In levels with many lemmings and low save requirements, this would be helpful. Seeing "2 more required" seems more helpful than "78 allowed kills left".
• hatch: There are a few levels, where the nth last lemming (for very small n) needs a skill assignment very soon after appearing or a release rate change is required then. Then this value helps a lot here.
• required or allowed kills initially (or something mathematically equivalent): Assume you realize in the middle of the level, that your solution does not quite work. Then having these two values available helps in determining fixes. But as the above would already display them at the beginning on the level, perhaps only display them ALTernatively after pressing some key.

Further comments and comparisons with Simon's list:

• required - saved: This is mathematically equivalent to Simon's out+hatch if allowed kills left is displayed, but seems easier to work with. I actually don't know what useful information out+hatch gives, but even if so, then adding the two values is easier than substracting them. Note as well, that at the start of the level required-saved plus allowed kills left gives initial.
• required: This is a fixed value that doesn't change. So it is of little value as a constant reminder. Of course, one may display both required and saved instead just their difference.
• died: Why would I want to know this? It just allows to compute certain more important values, so better display these.

So my proposal is to display just two values: required - saved / out + hatch
This pair makes sense as an answer to "How many of the still available lemmings do I need to save?" and allows an intuitive approach to allowed kills left. If there is still space left, one might display "hatch / initial" as well.

PS: Is it actually useful to display "TIME ----" all the time, even when the level has no time limit at all? Perhaps for levels without time limit, additional info can be displayed instead of "TIME ----".

[ccexplore]

Whichever ways things land, do come up with more newbie-friendly terms (eg. "allowed kills left" for "out + hatch + in - required") for any of the proposed stats that are being described by formulas--when things are finally implemented I'm guessing we usually won't want to display the formulas except in help text or settings.

[Simon]

required - saved / out + hatch

I'm good with that. With or without the separate hatch count as a third value, it's good.

ccx is correct with good captions needed. Lix displays icons, NL2 will display icons, but NL1 needs short captions. Ideas, sorted by what I like best at the left:

out + hatch = LEMS, LEM, LIVE
required - saved = NEED, SAVE, SAV, REQ, REQU

-- Simon