[NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]

[uberwolfie]

Good points all, and naturally the Lemmini engine means that the packs were a very different experience before conversion - I imagine the backroutes were also somewhat harder to execute sometimes, as were most things; it all needed a different approach from the player too.

[kaywhyn]

Good points all, and naturally the Lemmini engine means that the packs were a very different experience before conversion - I imagine the backroutes were also somewhat harder to execute sometimes, as were most things; it all needed a different approach from the player too.

Definitely! Lemmini is a very different engine from NL and the resulting playing experience being different. Levels that relied on Lemmini exclusive glitches don't work properly in NL since it eliminated all glitches and so they needed to be reworked in order to work properly. Not only that, there are also a lot of physics/mechanics differences between them. As for execution, it all depends on the level, since some levels are far harder in Lemmini than in NL due to the lack of convenience tools that are available in the latter, but there are also some levels that are somewhat easier in the former than in the latter. These are levels that usually relied on abuse of mechanics/glitches if you are aware of the differences which can potentially make it easier or harder in Lemmini, but again it depends on the level. Lemmini was also the first modern engine available for quite a while before the others emerged and hence was quite popular for playing/making levels for a time back then.

[Swerdis]

Hi,

in the past days I made my way through the peak of PimoLems. Knowing that I still have a long way to go to complete this pack, I want to give some feedback now, as I completed the hurricane rank.

There was a discussion here how PimoLems compares with DoveLems - maybe because both are older packs and both were adapted to NeoLemmix by Icho. For me, at this point, it's hard to say which one is better. To be honest, they are quite akin compared to other packs. Both often use remarkably small skillsets even in large levels, both contain almost no 20-of-everything-levels. And just like DoveLems, PimoLems ist not extraordinarily difficult to beat. It gave me some hard nuts to crack, though - maybe it's slightly harder than DoveLems, but that's nuances only. I read that PimoLems was far less backroute-prone than DoveLems. I cannot confirm that. I found several in the lower ranks, and the number decreased drastically in the middle of the pack. But to my surprise, in the hurricane rank the amount of backroutes rose again. Having said this, I'm with kaywhyn in this point. For me, lots of backroutes don't devaluate a pack. As a pack-creator, I would try to eliminate them, as a player I like to find them.

What also attracted my intention: It's clear that Pieuw like miners - otherwise he wouldn't create a whole rank dedicated to this skill. But he seems to have relatively little use for blockers. There are hardly any blocker-puzzles in this pack. In the hurricane rank, only 5 out of the 20 levels use this skill at all, the first 9 levels are totally blocker-free. Pieuw seems to prefer free-roaming Lemmings - forcing the player to find other ways how to stop these creatures.

A big advantage in favor of PimoLems, at least for me, is the presence of custom music. With the exception of the tune with the dogs in the background (which is terrible) I like all of the tracks. My favourite is the one which occurs first in Calm 3 and then later in Windy 16 or Hurricane 13 for example. The tunes in Windy 1 and Hurricane 18 are also great - unfortunately the only appear once. Can anyone tell me where these are from?

To go further into detail:

Calm: This is actually what can be expected from a good first rank. Tutorials levels without being too childish (except for the very first level). Calm 2 (Training Day) serves its purpose very well for example. My personal favourite at this early stage is probably Calm 7 (Lemstones) - not too easy combined with an attractive visual design. Things accelerate a bit after Calm 14. Calm 20 is even quite hard for this rank - then you know that the distribution of gifts is over.

Windy: To be honest, this rank is not where the pack really shines. It starts strong with a good, nice-designed first level, then you get your standard "let one Lemmings work from the other side and mine them out" level, followed by six relatively weak efforts. Windy 3 is much too easy. The tricks used in Windy 5,6 and 8 are very obvious for any experienced player. Windy 7 is too builder-extensive in a not-good way. But after that, it gets better. Windy 9 (The Hiking Tour) which I heavily backrouted, is a great level. Windy 11, though too hard for its position, Windy 12, 15 and especially 16 are very good too. The final level of Windy (Nick of Time!) almost played itself.

Stormy: To say it straight: This is the best rank of the regular pack. Most of my level-favourites are congregated here - and it's certainly not by accident that the stormy-levels seem to be the least backroute-prone. Pieuw did a great job here! Stormy 1 to 3 is already good, but the levels from 4 to 7 are really absolute gems. The next great sequence is from Stormy 10 to 12. The 13th level doesn't quite match up, but Stormy 14 and 15 are hot contenders even for the best levels in the entire pack. In "So logical", I'm sure many players are on the completely wrong track in the beginning - that's high art of level design. A late highlight of this rank, at least in my opinion, is Stormy 20.

Hurricane: As it should be, the levels in Hurricane are really harder than in Stormy - but not necessarily better (though still great). I admit that I had an easy time with some levels: Hurricane 2,4,12,13,14. The direct approach in "Barbarous Bars" proved successful though I immediately knew that this is a backroute. The trick used in Droll Drill and Cuba Libra I already knew from a Sublems-Level. I also was familiar with the major trick used in Hurricane 10. But this one was more demanding to figure out, because the trick had to be used twice and not "completely" - if you watch the specific video you know what I mean :-) As I already mentioned I found lots of backroutes in this rank. The heaviest, apart from Level 13, are Hurricane 9 (Blue Monday) and Hurricane 17 (Prisoners of the Pun) - though I must say I like especially this backroute a lot

The by far biggest problems I had with Hurricane 5 and Hurricane 19. In Candelabrum, I was quite sure from the beginning that I had to let the basher and digger cross. Mainly to make the basher work one pixel lower to save the Lemmings down right. But how to save to digger and the Lemmings falling into the pit then, this really caused me problems since you can't bomb at the ground....well, I finally found the solution. In "Balance your Strategy" I did what I normally never do. I looked into the internet for some inspiration. But this was not very successful, since Pieuw himself and Ichotolot in their videos had three miners at their disposal. Fortunately, I was able to solve this level with two miners only. Not a very elegant solution though, but the only one I can imagine.

So now, I will see what the additional ranks will bring. I'm especially excited for "One". Levels with time-limits are normally not something, I am particularly good at.

My solutions are here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka

[kaywhyn]

Congrats on finishing up through the Hurricane rank, Swerdis! Indeed, there's still 65 levels remaining, but I know you can do it. This pack's got nothing on you Also, thanks for the feedback on some of the levels in the first 4 ranks themselves. I don't really remember any of the levels themselves due to how much time has passed since I solved the entire pack, but I think due to your thoughts I'm inspired to pick up this pack again and play through it sooner than I thought I would. So, thanks to you, I will be revisiting this pack in the near future

There was a discussion here how PimoLems compares with DoveLems - maybe because both are older packs and both were adapted to NeoLemmix by Icho. For me, at this point, it's hard to say which one is better. To be honest, they are quite akin compared to other packs. Both often use remarkably small skillsets even in large levels, both contain almost no 20-of-everything-levels. And just like DoveLems, PimoLems ist not extraordinarily difficult to beat. It gave me some hard nuts to crack, though - maybe it's slightly harder than DoveLems, but that's nuances only. I read that PimoLems was far less backroute-prone than DoveLems. I cannot confirm that. I found several in the lower ranks, and the number decreased drastically in the middle of the pack. But to my surprise, in the hurricane rank the amount of backroutes rose again. Having said this, I'm with kaywhyn in this point. For me, lots of backroutes don't devaluate a pack. As a pack-creator, I would try to eliminate them, as a player I like to find them.

This pack's difficulty definitely doesn't come anywhere near what you see in packs like United, Nepsterlems, and probably even Seb Lems. Once again, I have yet to play Seb Lems, but I will soon, just as soon as I get my planned LPs done There's definitely quite some tough nuts in Pimolems, though. It was even worse for me due to how I first played and solved the entire pack on Lemmini due to the lack of convenience tools. It'll probably be a much more pleasant playing experience on NL when I get around to playing the pack on that engine in the future.

What also attracted my intention: It's clear that Pieuw like miners - otherwise he wouldn't create a whole rank dedicated to this skill. But he seems to have relatively little use for blockers. There are hardly any blocker-puzzles in this pack. In the hurricane rank, only 5 out of the 20 levels use this skill at all, the first 9 levels are totally blocker-free. Pieuw seems to prefer free-roaming Lemmings - forcing the player to find other ways how to stop these creatures.

That's what I like about the levels in some packs in that you often have to get creative in containing or delaying the crowd in some way, rather than use the standard 1 or two blockers to hold back the crowd, which the original Lemmings used way too much. It wasn't until the Taxing rank where you had to start using other ways to do so, such as digger/miner pits. These were often roadblocks for players when they were kids, just for the way the levels all of a sudden started demanding these things from the players without warning, especially since the levels before Taxing did an absolutely poor job of teaching players that there are other ways to contain the crowd besides using blockers.

Windy:
The final level of Windy (Nick of Time!) almost played itself.

When I first played through this pack on Lemmini, Windy 20 was one of the few levels that I ended up skipping. I don't remember when I finally solved it, but I think it might had been way after I finally came back to the pack a few years after I gave up on the pack in frustration in being stuck on Hurricane 3, along with Stormy 30. I do agree that the level is really good, and the solution to it is just so nice when it all comes together. As my post shows, it's definitely way more frustrating to play the pack on Lemmini, although Lemmini/SL are still my preferred engine of choice to play on due to how I stayed with them for at least 4-5 years before I finally made the switch to trying out NL last year. I have definitely grown to love NL a lot in the time I played through United.

Stormy: In "So logical", I'm sure many players are on the completely wrong track in the beginning - that's high art of level design. A late highlight of this rank, at least in my opinion, is Stormy 20.

That was definitely the case for me in So logical. In a way, the level title isn't being ironic at all. The solution is logical, you just have to think outside the box. It's still a great level, IMO. For Stormy 20, this was one of several glitch levels on Lemmini, and so if you look at this level on Lemmini, you can see that the level had to be reworked in order to work properly on NL. Due to how glitches are eliminated in NL, the reworked/remade version you see in NL is the closest you can get to the original Lemmini glitch solution. Most prominent is how there's a preplaced lemming, which Lemmini doesn't have.

Hurricane: As it should be, the levels in Hurricane are really harder than in Stormy - but not necessarily better (though still great). I admit that I had an easy time with some levels: Hurricane 2,4,12,13,14. The direct approach in "Barbarous Bars" proved successful though I immediately knew that this is a backroute. The trick used in Droll Drill and Cuba Libra I already knew from a Sublems-Level. I also was familiar with the major trick used in Hurricane 10. But this one was more demanding to figure out, because the trick had to be used twice and not "completely" - if you watch the specific video you know what I mean :-) As I already mentioned I found lots of backroutes in this rank. The heaviest, apart from Level 13, are Hurricane 9 (Blue Monday) and Hurricane 17 (Prisoners of the Pun) - though I must say I like especially this backroute a lot

The by far biggest problems I had with Hurricane 5 and Hurricane 19. In Candelabrum, I was quite sure from the beginning that I had to let the basher and digger cross. Mainly to make the basher work one pixel lower to save the Lemmings down right. But how to save to digger and the Lemmings falling into the pit then, this really caused me problems since you can't bomb at the ground....well, I finally found the solution. In "Balance your Strategy" I did what I normally never do. I looked into the internet for some inspiration. But this was not very successful, since Pieuw himself and Ichotolot in their videos had three miners at their disposal. Fortunately, I was able to solve this level with two miners only. Not a very elegant solution though, but the only one I can imagine.

As is generally true in any level pack, there tends to be way more backroutes in the later ranks than the more open-ended levels in the earlier ranks. Hurricane 10 took me a while to solve, but I think it's a really good level with a really great solution with the trick needed. It's awesome seeing the solution in action. It is a hard level, though, especially since it's very difficult to spot it and most of the time players don't even think of using builders that way when solving.

I completely agree with Hurricane 5 being a headscratcher of a level. That level also gave me some problems. The solution is difficult to plan in one's mind. As you might guess, executing the solution is far worse on Lemmini.

For the record, Hurricane 3 was what made me rage quit the pack. Keep in mind that I first played the pack on Lemmini. I didn't come back to Pimolems for a few years. When I finally did revisit the pack, I was able to get past the level with not as many problems. If it wasn't already done before then, I also was able to finally solve both Windy 20 and Stormy 20.

So now, I will see what the additional ranks will bring. I'm especially excited for "One". Levels with time-limits are normally not something, I am particularly good at.

I really love the One rank. It's amazing how Pieuw has an entire rank of 1 minute levels, most of which I consider really good. I'm one of the few that doesn't mind time limits in the game. I consider it a staple of the game, even if many of them in the original game are too huge to be any problem. I'm also a huge fan of numbers, especially since I'm a math teacher. You'll be fine, though. Luckily, the levels themselves are very short due to the 1 minute timers, meaning they're over really quick. It doesn't mean that the levels of the rank are quick solves, though. Some of them are quite hard, especially the later ones in the rank. In particular, I remember the brick level Straightforward in the rank, where my initial impression upon seeing the level was, "Really, the level's possible in just 1 minute?" You would think that it isn't due to the obstacle in the way: A very long wall that needs to be gotten through quickly. Can definitely bring up memories of the Just a Minute levels though, where it's pretty similar in terms of what needs to be done.

[Swerdis]

Thanks for your reply. An additional note to the blockers: When I said that Pieuw didnt' do a lot with blockers in PimoLems, I didn't think of using them to hold the crowd back in this very traditional manner. I'm sure all of us here are way beyond that. But there are lots of other things that can be done with blockers. The first two packs of NeoLemmix I ever played were Lemmings Plus I and II. And in these two packs, Namida did al lot of crazy stuff with them. And with bombers as well which are also a bit neglected in PimoLems. I think of levels like "Droppin' Bombs", "Top Deck" or "Above the forests". That's not a criticism of PimoLems. I just find it fascinating that every pack has its own characteristics.

Hurricane 10: Yeah, that one looks great in action in the end. I'm glad I played Insane Steve's World before - he used this trick in his pack quite often. So I was familiar with it - and used it again in Hurricane 17 (Prisoners of the Pun) to open a very nice backroute :-)

[kaywhyn]

Thanks for your reply. An additional note to the blockers: When I said that Pieuw didnt' do a lot with blockers in PimoLems, I didn't think of using them to hold the crowd back in this very traditional manner. I'm sure all of us here are way beyond that. But there are lots of other things that can be done with blockers. The first two packs of NeoLemmix I ever played were Lemmings Plus I and II. And in these two packs, Namida did al lot of crazy stuff with them. And with bombers as well which are also a bit neglected in PimoLems. I think of levels like "Droppin' Bombs", "Top Deck" or "Above the forests". That's not a criticism of PimoLems. I just find it fascinating that every pack has its own characteristics.

Thanks for the clarification. Indeed, it's amazing seeing other uses of the skills beyond their most common function. I have also played through Lemmings Plus 1, but I first played through this pack on Dos. In that engine, there are two levels that I didn't solve. I know the solution to both levels, they're just extremely annoying and very fiddly to pull off due to several things that Dos lacks: No directional select, cannot assign skills while paused, and no framestepping. I will likely LP this pack for NL after I finish my LP for Sublems. It seems like a really good compliment to it, as they seem quite similar in difficulty: Starts off very easy, gets hard near the end. For Lemmings Plus 2, I have not played the pack at all.

Hurricane 10: Yeah, that one looks great in action in the end. I'm glad I played Insane Steve's World before - he used this trick in his pack quite often. So I was familiar with it - and used it again in Hurricane 17 (Prisoners of the Pun) to open a very nice backroute :-)

That's awesome! Also, you reminded me that I need to finish up Insane Steve's pack. I played the first few levels but then stopped after that and haven't gone back to play the pack since. I think it was simply due to other packs that I wanted get through first, most notably United. Your post brings up a good point in that playing other packs can certainly help with learning some tricks that you possibly can use in other packs later on. This is one such case for you, so nice job Generally, it seems that once you learn/know of a trick, it's easy to apply it whenever the opportunity/situation calls for it. Some are still difficult to spot that it needs to be used, but it depends on the level, especially if the solution is very well-hidden.

[David]

I am delighted to discover this level pack. Thanks Pieuw for this great job and thanks IchoTolot for converting and updating ! Well done ! It's awesome !

I quite quickly managed to get to Stormy 4 level, and only From Pillar to Past (Windy 11) really gave me a problem ! But hey, by looking carefully, I managed to find a solution ! Difficulty medium ? Really ? I think it's starting to get hard, right ?

[IchoTolot]

Difficulty medium ? Really ? I think it's starting to get hard, right ?

Oh, my sweet summer child.   Let's say there is still much room concering the increase in difficulty in lemmings levels.

On another note: Defining difficulty is very difficult in itself. Even more if the variety of levels is so large as in lemmings. It's more of a general rough estimate here.

[David]

Thanks IchoTolot, I understand ! But ... I'm less trained/gifted than you ! Otherwise, I took a look at the Lemmings United pack, but ... what can I say ? I am too young to die !!! It's true, you're right, I am a sweet summer child. And... I like it !

[kaywhyn]

To add to Icho's explanation, difficulty is also extremely subjective. Levels that some found hard others might had found easy or vice versa. In the same way, some may like a particular level but others might dislike it. In general, if most found a particular level hard, then it's generally considered a hard level, regardless of whether some found it easy.

In my experiences, Pimolems starts picking up in difficulty a little less than halfway through the Windy rank and only goes up from there. The difficulty really kicks up when you leave the Windy rank and go into the Stormy rank, and then the difficulty stays high up through the end of the Hurricane rank. Then when you get to the special ranks of Pickaxe and One, they both start off easy but get quite difficult later on.

Otherwise, I took a look at the Lemmings United pack, but ... what can I say ? I am too young to die !!! It's true, you're right, I am a sweet summer child. And... I like it !

"I am too young to die" is a rank from Reunion, not United They're both Ichos' packs, though. 

[David]

I completely agree ! It is quite subjective. I'm in Stormy rank, and it's getting difficult (for me).

"I am too young to die" is a rank from Reunion, not United: P They're both Ichos' packs, though.

Yes, sorry, I was talking about Lemmings Reunion : I downloaded both IchoTolot packs at the same time. Difficult to locate myself in this "lemmings jungle", I feel like Little Thumb. And the lemmings ate my bread crumbs and stole my stones !

[Pieuw]

It's crazy to get so much detailed feedback after all the years. I've been reading this thread bits by bits over the last few days, plus uberwolfie's very thorough document, it's been such a joy!
I'm very aware of the pack's flaws. If I had to remake it today some levels wouldn't make the cut, others would be heavily edited. I'm not sure I would keep the bonus rank either. It seemed essential to me at the time since it showcases "milestones" on the journey I took with the editor. Some are the first levels I ever made, others were experimentations. As a player point of view, I can understand this rank feeling totally useless.

Without IchoTolot's endeavor I think PimoLems (and DoveLems probably) would have slowly sunk into the void. Lemmini, as great as it was back in the days, just doesn't stand comparison with NeoLemmix.

To address a particular point I've read here and there: yes at the time Dodo and I were messaging a lot and exchanging levels. We kind of inspired each other, which explains the similarities some people noticed between our two packs. We sometimes had similar ideas at the same time, like the main trick used in Sharin' the fuel and Lemmings on the Road to Ruin. Then we would send them to each others and be like "Whaaaat?" Ah, the nostalgia.
If I remember correctly, which I may not, DoveLems was released before PimoLems right?

Comparing the packs (any packs) feels a bit awkward I guess, each author having their own style and preferences. In the end it's only about the player's taste and the feeling may vary greatly from player to player. Diversity is what makes this world amazing after all

[kaywhyn]

Hi Pieuw,

It's so awesome to see the author of Pimolems return after so long and glad to finally meet and get to interact with you. Welcome back! Your Pimolems pack is the second custom pack I have played, my first one was Dovelems. Coincidentally, I think a few years after my college years, I was remembering the game of Lemmings and I did some searching on Youtube. I probably typed "custom lemmings level packs" in the search on the site, and a video by rtw LPing Dovelems happened to pop up. In particular, his intro video describing the Lemmini features was what drew me to the engine, and so I set out to download Lemmini and set it up, and hence begin my custom pack playing on a modern engine. The directional select rtw talked about in the video was what got me into getting Lemmini, as I think it's a very welcome feature when playing levels. Before this, I had played several Dos custom packs. Also, I grew up with the Dos version of Lemmings. I have a very extensive history with the game that I detailed here as my very first post here from earlier this year in March. Would you like to read it? WARNING: It's extremely long. I'm a very super detail-oriented person. You can definitely see it in the extensive feedback I've given to pack authors in the various level pack topics I've posted in.

I do have a confession to make in regards to my playing experience with your Pimolems pack, and that is Hurricane 3 - The Warehouse was what caused me to rage quit and stop playing the pack for a few years before I finally came back and got myself unstuck and proceed to solve the entire pack. I think I might had also had both Windy 20 - In the Nick of Time and Stormy 20 - Let Them Eat Cake unsolved at the time as well. If you recall, the latter uses a Lemmini glitch, although it's also present in Dos. I might had solved the rank finishers before skipping around the pack, and then encountering Hurricane 3, but I'm kind of more certain that I also had them unsolved before being stumped again with Hurricane 3. The former is a really great level with a really great solution. It's just so much fun seeing the solution in action and it working out, and it was certainly very satisfying to figure out. Can you really blame me for rage quitting due to how solutions are far more annoying to execute in Lemmini due to the lack of convenience tools like NL has? In any case, I eventually figured out all the solutions on my own, even if it took me 3 years.

Don't get me wrong, I think your Pimolems pack is an excellent pack. I definitely enjoyed your pack for the challenges the levels provided. Just the fact that I first played your pack on Lemmini back those many years ago (I think I played it in 2014?) was somewhat frustrating at the time, especially since one missed assignment and it's a restart. Pretty much the entire Hurricane rank is that. Normally, it takes a lot to get me to rage at Lemmings levels, and it's extremely difficult to find a level that I don't like, but I can only take so much after a certain number of resets on the same level. I'm sure once I start playing the converted pack on Neolemmix it will definitely be a more enjoyable playing experience. 

If I remember correctly, which I may not, DoveLems was released before PimoLems right?

I believe so?

[Pieuw]

Hey kaywhyn! Thank you for the warm welcome

Yes I've read your posts as well, and I understand your frustration! I remember testing levels on Lemmini being quite tedious more often than not. So I can imagine playing them and having to restart over and over, not being sure you're even on the right track, being discouraging.
NeoLemmix makes the experience of playing so much fun even when you mess up! Controlling time is very satisfying. I often get mixed up with the hotkeys though

If you come back to PimoLems I hope it'll be a pleasant journey for you

[kaywhyn]

I should add that I'm still a lover of Lemmini/Superlemmini even though I'm definitely very used to NL by now. Just the fact that playing on Lemmini is quite close to how I grew up with the Dos version, which is what I liked with the mechanics present: timed bombers, no assist tools like skill shadows and framestepping, to name a few. As a matter of fact, the second and last time I played through the entire Pimolems pack on Lemmini again was back near the end of 2018 when we were getting our house renovated. I haven't played any of the pack since, but thanks to Swerdis' detailed feedback on your pack I will be getting back to your pack much sooner than I thought I would. Before, I had decided that because I have already beaten the pack on Lemmini, playing it on NL was low priority for me, even though I have plans to eventually do so. I will likely end up LPing your pack, and so I'll let you know when I have my videos up on Youtube for that and provide you the link to watch.

I especially love the One rank, since I'm one of the few who doesn't mind time limits in the game, and I consider it a staple of the game. What blows my mind is how you managed to have an entire rank of 20 levels, all with only 1 minute on the clock. Not only that, I really like almost all the levels in the rank The Pickaxe rank is pretty good as well, just far more frustrating to pull off in Lemmini, especially with miner cancelling.