CustLemm Level List Game

[geoo]

I still find it somewhat strange that the level only requires 23/25 instead of 24/25, which isn't all that different.

The answer is rather simple: I simply didn't think of it.
Alternatively I could say, to make the player incorporate more ways to think of for solving the level.

My main intension was to show up that trick. I had thought this trick could be easily found out logically, and so I placed the level so early.

@Leviathan, it depends on who you want to give hints, to what levels and how far they should go.

[Shvegait]

Shvegait, your screenshots are made with the old version of the levelpak.  You should be using the updated version which fixed some of the levels (in particular 2,5,8 ).

My apologies    I've been a bit busy lately and haven't kept up as much as I'd like, but those are fixed now (2, 5, and 8 only. If any of the others were changed for aesthetic or other reasons, let me know and I'll update the shots.)

[geoo]

No, I only changed those three ones. (In fact, for level 8, there wasn't even a terrain change, I only changed the number of lemmings)

[ccexplore]

Bad: If you don't know the trick to passing it, you'll probably never get it.

Isn't this kinda redundant?  I mean, a level requiring a trick to pass by definition requires you to figure out the trick (or far less interestingly, require you to hear about the trick from someone else). To say this is bad would imply all levels requiring tricks are bad.

[Proxima]

No, it isn't redundant. Steve's saying that with this particular trick, if you don't know it beforehand you don't have a chance of working it out from the level. Not all tricks are like that -- to take a simple example, the blocker trick on Mayhem 20 (assuming that that level is where you saw it for the first time).

[ccexplore]

No, it isn't redundant. Steve's saying that with this particular trick, if you don't know it beforehand you don't have a chance of working it out from the level. Not all tricks are like that -- to take a simple example, the blocker trick on Mayhem 20 (assuming that that level is where you saw it for the first time).

I'm not sure about that particular trick of Mayhem 20.  I believe there was actually someone who mentioned in the Tehcnical or Game Help forum that they didn't like that trick much, since they found it "cheap" in the sense that it's so different from what the rest of the game has taught you about blockers.  In that sense, it's really not too different from the trick in question here.  Indeed, one can argue the geoo89 trick here actually is less surprising given the Mayhem 20 trick is already relatively well-known.

And in my e-mail to you weeks ago, I already explained how most tricks and even some glitches can, at least in theory, come about by probing deeper into the game mechanics more precisely, and finding conditions where your current understanding of the game fail to give you a definite prediction, or finding a fine point about the game mechanics that you can recreate using a different, previously unthought of combination of moves.  (Though at least for glitches, in practice their discovery often has a serendipital element.)

One might argue though that, perhaps with the Mayhem 20 trick, one is more likely to accidentally stumbled upon the discovery than here, where you specifically have to make a move that, had the trick not work, the move would be completely counterproductive.

On the other hand, surely at least a few of us must have observed that when you attempt to free a blocker by bashing underneath, you don't always have to remove the entire swath of ground underneath both feet of the blocker in order to free the blocker.  This observation can conceivably lead one down logically to a path resulting in discovery of the trick used for geoo89's level.

So, in short, I disagree that the trick cannot be worked out.  All the more evident when in fact this level has already been solved by a couple of people as compared with a few other levels, in particular level 10.  Certainly compared with something more bizarre like the miner glitch, this is at most a borderline glitch, and hardly defies expectations.

[Shvegait]

It just requires you to know a little bit about specific game mechanics, I think that's what he's saying. Although, if you're playing geoo's pack in the first place, you better know all about these mechanics.  

I don't think calling this a bad thing is necessarily a fair assessment of the level. You can deduce that you need to create steps, and you don't really have that many tools to do so. I think you can at least take some guesses to figure out... I'd never seen the specific trick before, but knowing the mechanics of the different tools surely helped. I think the same can be said about a TON of user-created levels though (not just geoo's). Would you be able to figure out many of these levels without ever playing the original Lemmings (or ONML or Cheapo, etc.)? It's easier to build on a foundation once you have one. The level progression of the original Lemmings did a good job with that, imo.

[guest]

I just thought I should mention that the levels in this pack should be played with custlem2 or nocdlem2. I doesn't make much of a difference in 1 and 2 but from now on everyone should be playing these levels with the adjusted fall height.

[Proxima]

I'm not sure about that particular trick of Mayhem 20. &#A0;I believe there was actually someone who mentioned in the Tehcnical or Game Help forum that they didn't like that trick much, since they found it "cheap" in the sense that it's so different from what the rest of the game has taught you about blockers.

I see that point; and note that though I will try to give a fair reply to your points about the Mayhem 20 trick compared with geoo89's trick, I haven't actually played his level and I don't know what that trick is.

I do think the Mayhem 20 trick "non-cheap", not just because you might discover it by accident, but because on that level you can work out that that's what must be done given the skills you have. (There is a different trick, used in one of Insane Steve's levels, that I was tempted to cite as my example instead, but I didn't know if you would have seen it.)

From what you say, it sounds like that applies to geoo89's trick too; but I don't know as I haven't seen it. I was just explaining what I think Insane Steve meant with his comment, not necessarily agreeing with it.  

[JM]

I can't even pass any of these levels except Level 9. Can somebody send the solutions for each level?

[Leviathan]

I can't even pass level 9 even with the safe fall distance on 63 pixels...I get the lemming in at 0 seconds,but the level fades out before the lemming is actually counted as saved.I made the lem a floater at the lowest possible position near the exit.

[ccexplore]

I see that point; and note that though I will try to give a fair reply to your points about the Mayhem 20 trick compared with geoo89's trick,

I don't think Mayhem 20 trick is "cheap" myself, actually I don't think the person actually used that word either.  Unfortunately forum search failed to turn up where the post was, all I remember was that the person didn't like levels like that, and he said something to the effect that it defies prior expectations a little too much.

because on that level you can work out that that's what must be done given the skills you have.

I don't seem to rely as much on "let's look at how many skills you're given to help guess your way to the solution" strategy as others, but Shvegait did make a similar point regarding geoo89's level 1.  Certainly you don't have to go to a different level to work out what should be done.

[ccexplore]

We were going to review geoo89's pack after people had had enough time. Is that okay?

How are people doing with this pack anyway?  I never quite understood why guest proposed to review the set so early, when it seems like very few people have completed even half the set yet.

I planned to review level 4, although I imagine that's one of the levels that people are more likely to get, so if absolutely necessary I can hack up a review for level 3 to move things along.  I might also do a review for either 8 or 9.

I think JM should not be allowed to do a review for 9 though, since as far as I can tell he only passed the level in CustLemm, which doesn't count.

[JM]

After geoo89's pack I thought it would be a good idea to review GARJEN04 by Garjen as his levels have some pretty interesting things in them. I'm basically stuck on the whole pack. Level 3 is really annoying. If anyone has the solutions at each level please PM them to me thanks

Btw ccexplore why can't I be allowed to review the 9th level?

[Leviathan]

Btw ccexplore why can't I be allowed to review the 9th level?

I'll answer on this one...you're supposed to play the level with Lemedit 2 where the safe fall distance is adjusted...I guess this plays a vital role in level 9...

I can't even pass it with the "normal" Lemedit though