[NeoLemmix] Revenge of the Lemmings 2.0!

[mobius]

I'll post hints and solution here so anyone else can see if they want/need.
This level is quite unique and difficult. It requires a good understanding of the game, but nothing glitchy.

HINTS:

Spoiler

All blockers are used, two will be killed but two must be freed

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Do not make any of the blockers bombers. The bombers are used elsewhere

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All skills are used AND 'something' else is needed. Something you probably don't use too often, at least to solve a level.

-If you figure out what this thing is; study how it works carefully beforee proceeding with this level.

Spoiler

The order of tasks assigned is very important here. Specifically; which lemmings you choose to do which jobs.

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You'll use a technique you used in another secret level in the fifth rank

big spoilers:

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You need to use the NUKE to solve this level.

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It's important to understand how the nuke works, that's the key to this level:
-When nuke is initiated; not all Lemming's countdown are set and they don't all explode at the same time.
-The first Lemming to enter the level starts its timer first; the last lem to enter starts last. You can observe this if you've ever nuked when lemgs came out of the hatch walking in a straight line; the nuke ripples along in the line like a wave.

SOLUTION:

Spoiler

-make first lem out of each hatch climber.
-left one block in the middle of the screen in between fire areas. Let the right one alone for now.
-Wait for all lems to enter the level. Once they do, bomb the left side to let them free.
-At the same time, make a lem from the right climb, this will by default be the last lemming to enter; this is how the game works, "newer lemmings" are always selected over "old" ones.
-on the right, the newest lemming [the last one you just made climber], make him bash left out of the start area and block him directly over the first blocker. Once they are sufficiantly ahead (just enough do they won't get tangled up with the group; bomb the right group free.
-On the left, once the left group is head right into the little pit area where they get trapped; make a climber. Once again, by default the last lemming entered will be the climber. Make him blocker directly below the ones above. You can bash the rest of the left group free; they'll walk to the exit.
-On the right, the lemming walking in front should be the very first lemming you made climber on the right [the first out of the right entrance hatch], make him block directly beneath the rest of the blockers.
-Once all the remaining lemmings are getting close to the exit; press the nuke button.
-If you did everything correctly; you should notice something unusual about the blockers; the lower ones should receive their countdown immediatly; while the ones on top are delayed by several seconds. This will allow the bottom to explode before the top; the top are freed and fall into the exit before their countdown actually ends; thus saving enough.

Let me know if this is not sufficient, if you don't understand anything. When I made this pack this was before I started making replays of everything [and keeping them organized].

[Wafflem]

​Since secret levels triggers are being removed, what are we to do with the secret levels themselves?

What I think should happen is that all secret levels should be moved among the regular levels. These includes the secret levels that are unlocked by talisman. If one hasn't noticed yet, the secret levels unlocked by talismans only occur in the first four ranks, and it is very difficult to make talismans for the later ranks.

An advantage of doing this is that people won't be missing out on the secret levels, because many of these are of excellent quality like Into the Countree and Tier Drops.

This, however, can cause an uneven number of levels in each rank (i.e. Picnic has 33 levels, Hootenanny has 34 levels, Carnage has 32 levels, etc.). I'm wondering if we should even this out, by either removing unnecessary levels or adding more, or if we should leave it as is.

Another issue - what do we do with Cheapo-converted levels like Picnic 24 "Minesweeper Lemmings", Devious 18 "Lemmings of Persia" and Armageddon 12 "The Hotel in Hell"?

[mobius]

​Since secret levels triggers are being removed, what are we to do with the secret levels themselves?

What I think should happen is that all secret levels should be moved among the regular levels. These includes the secret levels that are unlocked by talisman. If one hasn't noticed yet, the secret levels unlocked by talismans only occur in the first four ranks, and it is very difficult to make talismans for the later ranks.

An advantage of doing this is that people won't be missing out on the secret levels, because many of these are of excellent quality like Into the Countree and Tier Drops.

This, however, can cause an uneven number of levels in each rank (i.e. Picnic has 33 levels, Hootenanny has 34 levels, Carnage has 32 levels, etc.). I'm wondering if we should even this out, by either removing unnecessary levels or adding more, or if we should leave it as is.

Another issue - what do we do with Cheapo-converted levels like Picnic 24 "Minesweeper Lemmings", Devious 18 "Lemmings of Persia" and Armageddon 12 "The Hotel in Hell"?

If people don't like there being an odd number of levels in the rank, Another option is to add them to a new rank. I'm not sure how this can work with the talisman achievements however.
If anybody wants to work on this immediately; remember this is an open source project, just ask me for info and I'll give you the tools to work on it. I don't really have much time to do it now, myself.

Why do we need to do anything with Cheapo-converted levels?

[Proxima]

Why do we need to do anything with Cheapo-converted levels?

Because, apparently, these levels have been set to "Cheapo Mode", which changes the max fall distance. This should not have been done in the first place -- it's not fair on the player to vary max fall distance within a level pack without warning -- and namida has said the feature will be removed from NeoLemmix.

All the levels in question are mine, so I'm happy to take a look at them and decide how best to change them to keep the concepts as close as possible to the originals.

[mobius]

oh, that's a big mistake. I don't remember doing that, at least not on purpose.

ACtually, unfortunately I can't remember doing these at all  . Did I re-create the levels or convert them with the converter [so that they're large images?] I know Hotel in hell is like this, but I thought I re-created the others.

[Wafflem]

I believe that you recreated SeriousGamer/Ben Bryant's levels and some of Proxima's (like Carnage 6 "Behind Bars"), but directly converted the ones like Minesweeper Lemmings and The Hotel In Hell from Cheapo.

Anyway, if we are going to move secret levels to regular ranks, should we include Frenzy 31 "The Land of Nightmares"? I'm not too sure about this one because it would be very frustrating finding where the exit is (and even I haven't beaten that one yet). I'm very impressed with the design of the level though and the mixture of the three VGASpec levels.

[mobius]

Proxima is okay with removing Land of Nightmares altogether. I sent him his levels so he can review them. Those were the only ones that had this cheapo issue.

[Proxima]

It's up to you whether you think the level is worth keeping. If you don't like the hidden-exit aspect, you could move the exit directly up until the trigger is exposed.

I've just tested the problematic levels. Unfortunately Waltz in C Sharp Miner (the harder version of Minesweeper) and The Hotel in Hell are broken due to the shorter safe fall distance when Cheapo Mode is turned off. (Also, the direct conversion of The Hotel in Hell has made it a vertical scrolling level, which it shouldn't be.) Lemmings of Persia is still solvable, but maybe not 100%able. Minesweeper Lemmings is fine as it's 20-of-all.

I'll find some way to fix all these as soon as I can

[namida]

(Also, the direct conversion of The Hotel in Hell has made it a vertical scrolling level, which it shouldn't be.)

This is because standard height of a level in Cheapo is 200px, whereas in NL it's 160px.

Another problem with Cheapo levels is that Cheapo doesn't save a list of terrain pieces and locations; it saves a single huge bitmap. That's why conversions use VGASPECs. This does of course make them hard to edit; though fortunately NL supports mixing VGASPECs and regular terrain (including erasers, if need be) in a single level.