Level Designing appeal about Bridge-stretching

[IchoTolot]

When I discovered NeoLemmix I was very happy about all the little helpers like the one screen back/forward button etc. It helped focus the levels more about finding the solution and not about getting the solution to work, even with very precise levels.
Also Bridge-stretching has become very easy for experienced players who know this little trick............and here comes my concern:

I and probably most of the experienced NeoLemmix users use streching as a natural. I saw it by playing myself and from namida's videos that nearly all of our bridges aren't clean stairs anymore and turned into *oh how should I call it *  little levels of single stairs (all bridges streched out).
This would not be a big deal, but for new players it is unnatural to strech bridges (even "Livin' On The Edge" just requires building one bridge at the edge and not stretching) and it is a big thing to puzzle through for them the first time.
Furthermore it adds under NeoLemmix just very little but still some more mostly unnessesary precision and fiddeling. Some levels make a good combo trick with this technique, but most of the levels just have it there adding this precision/fiddeling and (this is my main point) to prevent backroutes from their levels, or out of consistency!

Let me explain this:

1.)
Some gaps that need for example 3 builders to get over, can also be conquered with 2 steched ones. -> one spare builder to backroute
Solution: Design little-medium gaps which make no difference in bridges needed with streched/unstreched builders.

2.)
There is a critical builder lenght (from 7 to 8 builders as I remember it from one of my levels) in which streching will always spare a builder which can be used for backroutes, unless you make the streching nesserary to have enough builders for this gap! (steched pixels = lenght of 1 builder)
For my NeoLemmix port of Lemmings Reunion I changed one of the big gaps from 8 unstreched builders in Lemmini (nobody sane steches so many builders there) to 8 streched ones in NeoLemmix to prevent backroutes. This gap needs this many builders to create a long task to complete before the horde comes.
I also thought about a solution for this one: foe example 3+3+2 builder gaps on which steching will make no difference.
Another solution would be to make the height of the bridge the main criteria to get over the gap, because this connot be streched and normal steching would make the height worse.

So what's my appeal here in this post for all of the level designers?

Do not use bridge-streching as part of the intended solution, unless the level uses a trick centered around it!
But don't punish players who use it as natural (me included)! Make gaps on which streching makes no difference, so it doesn't get punished, but it also doesn't get rewarded with a spare builder!

This will lead to less precision and fiddeling on your levels and make it a bit easier for new players!

I don't say change all of your packs to this non-rewarding method! I myself let the consistent streching requirement to prevent backroutes in my pack and current single levels, too!

I appeal to use this method in your future stuff!
Don't reward or punish it! Make it nessesary only where it actually contributes to the solution!

[ccexplore]

There is a critical builder lenght (from 7 to 8 builders as I remember it from one of my levels) in which streching will always spare a builder which can be used for backroutes

Unless NeoLemmix changed the size of a build step or the offset between steps (compared to original Lemmings), with my math I'm not getting that number you stated:

Each build step is 6 pixels, each step is 2 pixels offset from the previous.  A single builder can lay 12 steps.  Therefore the bridge of a single builder spans 6 + 2x11 = 28 pixels, but of course it must start on the edge of the gap, so the maximum gap length a single builder can span is 27 pixels.

Without stretching, the next builder bridge gains horizontal span purely through the inter-step offsets of 2 pixels per step, so each additional builder increase the span length by 2x12 = 24 pixels.

So without stretching, N builders allow you to span a maximum gap length of 24N + 3.

With stretching, you obvious gain another 27 for each additional builder, so the maximum gap length is 27N.

So for stretching to always spare you a builder, I believe you are looking for the following:

27(N-1) >= 24N + 3

The solution to this inequality is N >= 10, not the 7 or 8 you mentioned. [Can someone check and see if I made any errors anywhere?]

Of course, as you noted, even below that number, there will be specific gap lengths where stretching would save a builder, and you'll run into more and more such gap lengths as you approach the limit above.

[IchoTolot]

The critical point my differ a bit, but it still exist. I don't have the exact numbers either, but the problem is still there (as most gaps don't end exactly after builder N).

And also this you mentioned:

Of course, as you noted, even below that number, there will be specific gap lengths where stretching would save a builder, and you'll run into more and more such gap lengths as you approach the limit above.

[namida]

Unless NeoLemmix changed the size of a build step or the offset between steps (compared to original Lemmings), with my math I'm not getting that number you stated:

The only difference in this regard between DOS L1 and NeoLemmix is that you can stretch them equally far when left-facing.

[IchoTolot]

Another solution for big gaps came to my mind and added it to the main post: The height of the bridge as the main criteria.

[607]

Could anyone explain this "streching" to me? Or do you think it would spoil too much?

[IchoTolot]

Could anyone explain this "streching" to me? Or do you think it would spoil too much?

If a builder ends his bridge, he will be idle for a sec and then move on. Normally you assign an additional builder at this little idle time, but when you let him walk just a little step more to the edge of the bridge and then assign the skill the next bridge will be "streched-out" by a few pixels, which mean in quite some levels that you can get over a gap in one less builder.

[607]

Ah, okay, that's what you mean. Yeah, I always use that too.

[Simon]

This is valuable advice for level designers.

Wherever possible, design such that both stretching and non-stretching bridges give the same result.

From the various game engines, there have emerged different cultures, some which stretch out of habit, some which don't. Cater to all groups.

Lemmings has been designed for the player to click the shrugger. There has been a conscious decision to make this animation. If bridges were to be stretched, the shrugger animation would happen after walking to the endpoint, not before.

Have level design match the game's design for an enjoyable overall experience.

In general, enjoy Neolemmix's features while playing, but, as a level designer, do not rely on the player using them.

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

Using the same math presented above, the gap lengths where stretching save you one builder would be from 24 x (N-1) +4 to 27 x (N-1) inclusive, where N is the number of builders needed to span the gap length without stretching.  This leads to the following:

52-54: needs 3 builders unstretched, only 2 stretched
76-81: 4 unstretched, 3 stretched
100-108: 5 unstretched, 4 stretched
124-135: 6 unstretched, 5 stretched
148-162: 7 unstretched, 6 stretched
172-189: 8 unstretched, 7 stretched
196-216: 9 unstretched, 8 stretched
220-243: 10 unstretched, 9 stretched

Beyond that, stretching always saves a builder.